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The 8th civ spot- a study of the evidence

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by monkspider, Jun 5, 2002.

?

After reading the thread, who do you think it will be?

  1. Koreans

    14 vote(s)
    35.9%
  2. Hebrews

    8 vote(s)
    20.5%
  3. Inca

    11 vote(s)
    28.2%
  4. Other (please discuss)

    6 vote(s)
    15.4%
  1. monkspider

    monkspider Warlord

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Wichita, Kansas
    Currently we are aware of seven of the eight civs to appear in the upcoming XP.
    1. Mongols
    2. Spanish
    3. Carthaginians
    4. Celts (Gauls?! who?)
    5. Ottoman Turks
    6. Vikings
    7. Arabs

    There are number of theories on who the last civilization is, ranging from the Canadians to the Austrailians. However, in this thread I will discuss who I personally view as the three most likely candidates to gain inclusion. So I appologize if Firaxis fools all of us and the Ethiopians end up making it in. After evaluating all the evidence for each of these three civs I will then venture a hypothesis on who I feel is most likely to be our mysterious eighth civ.

    As a general background to this discussion, I recemend those who haven't already, take a look at my "unlocking the secrets of the new civ select screen" thread ( Http://64.246.32.51/~admin1/forums/...&threadid=51217 ) to gain a bit of understanding on what I will be basing some of my evidence on. Now without further ado, let's get started.

    First let's take a look at who is currently the most popular candidate to recieve the final civ slot. The Koreans.
    + The famous "hwacha" photograph. In a handful of websites the Koreans are mentioned as to having a "fire cartwheel" weapon known as the Hwacha. This simple fact has led many to presume the Koreans' inclusion to be virtually a sure thing.
    + The Koreans invented a number of things, including the first moveable-type printing press and in fact there is currently a movement to revise history books which say that Guttenberg was it's inventor.
    + Korea has a long history, and has one of the largest gaming markets in the world. Surely this can't escape Firaxis'
    consideration.
    + The last civ has seven letters and "Koreans" is exactly seven letters.
    -- The Hwacha unit, which many have touted as ironclad proof of Korea's inclusion, could easily be a part of the Feudal Japan themepack which is going to be included in PTW(http://www.civ3.com/pressrelease.cfm). In fact, all of the websites that mention the Hwacha describe it in a time Korea is at war with Japan. This certainly adds creedence to the "feudal themepack" hypothesis. It is also not impossible that the Hwacha was used by other civilizations such as China or Japan, or at least Firaxis will at least portray it as being used by those civilizations. Firaxis has never been 100% accurate with some of it's historic portrayals.
    -- The negative reaction from certain elements of the Civ 3 regarding Firaxis' inclusion of "minor" civs such as the Iroquois or Zulus may be pushing Firaxis toward a policy of including only "powerhouse" civs and excluding civs which serve mainly to represent geographic regions. While I strongly disagree with this practice, the civ listing so far seems to confirm this as Firaxis' intentions. There is no South American civ or African civ in sight, and all the civs that have been confirmed are largely regarded as fairly large empires in their day and fairly well known amongst the mainstream (with Gauls being an arguable exception, but I still refuse to accept that as anything but a typo, "CELTS" on the other hand, would be well recognized amongst the masses. If for nothing else, but for all the "Celtic crosses" and so forth you see QVC) So the fact that Korean history is largely unknown in the western world may ultimately work against them, as some of the ignorant masses may decry them as a "minor" civ unworthy of inclusion.
    -- Relating to my last point, the Koreans may be viewed too close(culturally and geographically) to Japan/China to be included amongst the mainstream gamers.

    Let's turn now to the Hebrews, a civ whose inclusion has gained a lot of steam since the "Unlocking the secrets of the Civ Select screen" thread.
    + Certainly the Hebrews' most tangible proof is the infamous Civ Select screen photo which seems to reveal the letters "Heb" (which will be attached at the end of this message). After closely analyzing the civ select screen in the E3 PTW video, we managed to uncover where the name of last civ would actually be located. The only problem is that the picture is so distant, it's nearly impossible for the naked eye to make out what the last civ's name actually is. However an extreme close-up seems to reveal the striking likeness of the letters "Heb" which points very strongly to the Hebrews' inclusion.
    + In the same vein of the "Powerhouse Civ" theory discussed above which seemed to damn the Koreans, it also seems to greatly add to Hebrew's case. Certainly Israel is a civ that's on everyone's mind these days and is much more marketable to westerners than the Koreans, and the fact that the Arabs are included points strongly to the Hebrews being included as well. Some may even try to make political statements out of it if Firaxis included the Arabs and not the Hebrews. I think given Israel's well of support in the USA, Firaxis may not want to try this.
    + "Hebrews" also passes the seven letter test.
    -- Aside from "Heb" there is no direct evidence of the Hebrews' inclusion. No city names seen on the PTW video or any known screen shot, no leader shots, etc.
    -- If the Hebrews were included that would mean three more civs were to be added to the middle east region in the XP (two if they make Turkey Mediterranean) which isn't unthinkable and maybe Firaxis wanted to illustrate how crowded the middle-east is in real life, but from a gameplay-balance perspective it would little sense with no sign of any possible American civ.
    -- Given the hectic state of Israel's existence through out history, some would say this would disqualify them from being classifed as an actual civ.

    Let's turn to the last civ to be taken into consideration. The Inca.

    + While not actual evidence per se, the strongest case that can be made for the Inca is the fact that there is no known American civ included in the XP thus far. This simple fact would throw off Civ 3's cultural regions, which are already upset by an inproportionate number of European civs. While this is admittedly a minor feature in the grand scheme of things, one would think that Firaxis would try to keep this balanced.
    + Along with the Arabs, the Inca were mentioned in Civ 2 text files, which seems to show that Firaxis was looking at their inclusion in that game. This at least gives them a precedent of some sort.
    -- This is no actual evidence of the Inca's inclusion in PTW of any sort.
    -- The "powerhouse" civ theory which seemed to help the Hebrews and hinder the Koreans would doubly hinder the Incas. For better or worse, people complained about the Aztecs inclusion when Civ III came out. Perhaps Firaxis took this to heart and ruled out including the Incas in the XP. While I hope they would let these ignorant few affect them, the current civ listing seems to show that it is at least a possibility.
    -- The Inca do not pass the "seven letter test" which the Koreans and Hebrews did.


    In conclusion, based on a preponderence of the evidence, I believe that the 8th civ slot will go to....*drumroll please*
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    -
    The Hebrews!

    I know this is a contraversial pick that flies in the face of many Hwacha photograph supporters. But I think based on the evidence that exists: how well known Israel is in the Western World, the fact that Firaxis is seemingly only picking "powerhouse" civs well known amongst westerners, the fact that the Arabs are also included and not including Israel may send a message that would make Firaxis unpopular amongst many American buyers, the seven letter test which Hebrews passes, and of course, the "Heb photo". I also think the Hwacha will actually turn out to be part of the feudal Japan scenario. Well, thanks for hearing me out until the end. Let's hear your thoughts on this!




    __________________
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  2. monkspider

    monkspider Warlord

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    just a friendly punt :)
     
  3. DaSilva

    DaSilva Everything Random

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    Is that the image you made these conclusions from?

    Its smaller than a really small thing covered in small bits.
     
  4. Paalikles

    Paalikles Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2001
    Messages:
    1,536
    where is the picture, and as I found it - why is it so small?

    Question:
    In what way do you then think the hwacha will be used in a feudal japan scenario. Will they modify one of the existing civs to play the role of Koreans?

    Question:
    It does seem to balance out arabs with hebrews
    Edit: I believe the correct term is Middle East
    But why cram more civs into Europe/North Africa...

    And what would their UU be IF they were included in PTW?

    Why would Firaxis not balance things?
    - Powers of Europe have been known to colonize the world - therefore many civs from Europe must be in the game
    - Powers of America ("Americans excluded, initially being european colony) like Atzecs, Incas, Mayans (examples) were every bit as "civilized" as European civs
    - Powers of Africa have been known to crumble under the feet of European settlers (example: Zulus) Nevertheless, the Zulus are in. Even Hannibal is in.
    - Powers of Asia, like Indians, Chinese and Japanese, now give space to the Mongols. There is still room for more...


    Inca nation - does not exist today, but neither do the Carthaginians
    Viking - there never was a viking nation - but there were vikings...does not exist today (Norwegians, Swedish, Danish)

    Taken from the top of my head, when reading this thread

    At least my 2cents are free.
     
  5. GhengisFarb

    GhengisFarb www.GhengisFarb.com

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    If it is the Hebrews they would certainly play well as continually pooping up after you thought they had been destroyed....

    by the Egyptians...
    and the Babylonians...
    and the Persians...
    and the Romans...
     
  6. monkspider

    monkspider Warlord

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    Wichita, Kansas

    Good question, it is tough to get it any larger without greatly distorting it. But I am working on it. :)

    Another good question! There are a number of ways the hwacha could be used in a feudal Japan scenario. In all the websites that the Hwacha is mentioned, it is described during a time Korea is at war with Japan. So it could be as simple as Korea being one of participants in this Feudal Japan themepack, and given Korea's near-constant state of war with Japan during this timeframe it is almost unthinkable that Korea wouldn't be included! It is also possible that Firaxis may forego historical accuracy and give the unit specifically to the Japanese. It is also possible that Civilizations such as Japan or China used this unit as well and the scant few websites that mention the Hwacha simply failed to add this little detail.

    Well it seems to be Firaxis intention that they are not including civs that are intended mostly to represent geographical locations. As I mentioned, there were quite a few Aztec/Iroqouis protest threads when Civ III came out, so perhaps Firaxis took this to heart and is saying to hell with cultural balance and only including civs that people are well-famillar with to try to make their fans happy. I personally disagree with this practice but it seems that it may be the direction that Firaxis is going.
     
  7. Random Passerby

    Random Passerby Bystander

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    Being staunchly delusional, I refuse to believe that Firaxis is actually bowing to pressure for "powerhouse" civs and is resisting the inclusion of culture/geographic-balance civs. Hence it is my belief that all references to the Vikings, Carthaginians, Spanish, and Celts are, in fact, typos, and the actual expansion civs will include the Inca, Ethiopian, Apache, Australian aborigine, and Inuit civs, featuring such exotic and powerful UUs as the kangaroo rider and igloo.
     
  8. Mongoloid Cow

    Mongoloid Cow Great Khan

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  9. dikwhit

    dikwhit Warlord

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    My big question and ive raised it b4, is if the hebrews are included, does this mean they will run around with a settler and a warrior until the 1940's AD and then be granted a homeland?????
     
  10. Level

    Level Prince

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    In a chat at apolyton a few days ago Firaxis let slip that the hwacha will not be used only in the feudal japan scenario, and they only conferm Spanish, Mongols, and the Andorians from Star Trek
     
  11. alpha wolf 64

    alpha wolf 64 Byte me

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    The andorians are the last civ. Those blue antenea were too cute to ignore. :D
     
  12. CeasarSalad

    CeasarSalad Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Hmmm.

    Anybody working on a Trek-themed Civ3 modpack?

    Methinks that'd be pretty cool.

    Cardassians, Klingons, Bajorans, etc.
     

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