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The Agricultural revolution, industrialization, and Urbanization

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by CGG1066, Nov 4, 2010.

  1. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    Agreed - it could add a very interesting dimension, and really enhance the feel of the game too. I just wanted to make sure we had the simple idea down before we let it grow.
     
  2. MikeJep

    MikeJep Chieftain

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    I am totally for something like this. Given current game mechanics it may be difficult to implement however. This is one solution I thought up regarding food transporting.

    1). Make wheat (and other food resources) a strategic resource. Therefor the number of wheat farms you posses gives you more of this wheat resource. I would to balance, make wheat not give +1 :c5food: as it does currently. In fact I think it may be better to decrease -1 :c5food:. In this way the wheat resource can act as a surplus which may be sent afar.

    2). Make some sort of city UI button -/+ which use up, if you will, the wheat resource and give +1 :c5food: to that city.

    3). Make it so that the wheat resource may be planted. Therefore increasing the exporting capacity of your farm cities.

    4). City states should simply give x number of food resources which you can divide up as you see fit. I found it inane that one city state gave a small civ 5:c5food: but could supply a world spanning empire 50:c5food:!!!

    5). Using the Arabian unique buildings +1 to resources modifier. It may be possible to implement some sort of fertilizer "improvement" at the cost of one of the energy resources (i think they should have implemented electricity as a resource...). This building could increase the wheat yields from 1 wheat to 2 wheat.

    As a side note, I totally think that the terrain surrounding the civ should be worked by fewer citizens. I think it is so stupid that it is so linear. One citizen works only one tile leaving the rest fallow? Why wouldn't that one population unit farm just the best land in the whole city radius.

    For example, one citizen working a city radius specializing in :c5food: would only farm the very best land having the highest yields. The next citizen would be marginally less productive. I think a system were a marginal utility formula was applied to the whole city radius of tiles would be soooooo much more fun. The same could be done for :c5production: :c5gold:
     
  3. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    If you were to make wheat a resource, and then allow for it to be planted, that would be quite a break from the current resource system. Is that part of the idea particularly necessary?
     
  4. Johan de Witt

    Johan de Witt Prince

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    Nevertheless, I think it's a great idea.

    But indeed, these are actually two different ideas.
     
  5. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    I'm out for a week and the thread lives on! I love it!

    I sort of like MikeJep's idea (maybe not the part about planting food resources, as people would just spam them), even though I have an aversion to creating more resources generally. Perhaps the seed (hehe) should be tweaked when generating the map to make those resources more abundant (as they're relatively rare) - depending on how balancing/testing goes. It seems to be a better fit with the current game than my OP (which I always thought would be an idea for a future iteration of the game, rather than a mod).
     
  6. MikeJep

    MikeJep Chieftain

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    I must have not been very clear.
    I will try again. I WANT wheat and other food resources spammed!!!

    The :c5food: +1 from the wheat resource would be removed. As well as the +1 :c5food: you get from farms.

    E.g.
    Grasslands = 2:c5food:.
    Grassland + wheat = 2:c5food:.
    Grassland + farm + wheat = 2:c5food: + 1 wheat resource.

    I would kajjigger some Lua code that, by planting a farm you automatically plant wheat. The loss in :c5food: (as compared to vanilla civ) is made up for however in the number of wheat resources your empire now possesses. Each wheat resource can be "cashed-in" for 1:c5food: using a handy-dandy Lua interface(also needs to be moded) on the city screen. (feel like food trade before refrigeration for fruit should be crappy? no problem make the cash-in rate 0.2:c5food:!)

    Since wheat is a resource, you can trade it to other empires. (I also think this would stop city-states thinking they are Jesus with 5 loaves and 2 fish feeding half the world).

    As technology progresses, the wheat resource could be replaced from a wheat=1 to a wheat =2. This would increase the effective food production.

    Also, once the technology for the Haber process (important for making fertilizer, responsible for 1/3 of world food) has been developed, a new improvement the (nitrogen fixation plant) could be built requiring power (either coal or oil) and increases the yields of wheat.

    Now we would have more options for coal then just build a factory or build a factory (who has ever built an ironclad?)
     
  7. MikeJep

    MikeJep Chieftain

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    I also wanted to quickly point out. Yah, there is a net loss of food, but so what. Also, in my opinion, the food resources blow. I would rather build a trade post on most of them anyways!
     
  8. Hengoroth

    Hengoroth Chieftain

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    In Civ4 bts u had the possibility to choose religions when u researched specific techs. U could add these types of triggers at different techs in different areas where u want the industrial revolution to happen and its different stages,but it can only happen once in one age.this way u can't loose the revolution by teching a more warfare-road than a scienceroad or a more comerce orientatet techpath. Another way are to see the industrial revolution as a type of golden age that only can happen x-amount of times with for an example techs giving points to the revolution. I really like the idea of an industrial revolution with the possibility of diffusion to lesser fortunate civs as time goes by.
     
  9. GenericPlayer

    GenericPlayer Warlord

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    I support this idea. It would be really neat to have dedicated production centers and dedicated wheat belts.

    One of the annoying things I found is that I may need to create a city in the middle of the arctic to gain access to a specific resource, but then I can't feed the city even though I have other cities generating plenty of surplus food.

    The current system of 'trade routes' just gives you cash based upon the size of each city in the trade network. But I would gladly give up the cash if it means that items like food and ores can be traded through the network.
     
  10. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    But note that this is quite realistic. You shouldn't be able to make arctic cities massive. This is just something that you have to factor into a cost benefit analysis of settling in arctic regions for resources. You do gain the benefit of the resource, but the city will otherwise be a fairly useless one. Removing the second of these considerations could be rather detrimental to the idea of city placement.
     
  11. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    This is a bit of a catch-22; this whole mechanic is designed so that non-food rich areas can have high populations, so that productive areas like hills can be rich - but like you said, it doesn't seem quite right to have arctic cities - for both game-play and realism reasons.

    However, I think the solution has already been discussed - in post #33 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9882903&postcount=33) I suggested an internal migration mechanic where citizens would migrate to the city that has the highest-yielding tile/specialist slot available. This should keep the arctic city relatively small and useless (save for the resources harvested), as snow/ice tiles are low yielding so only a couple citizens would be required to work productive tiles.

    The limit to growth for these cities, then, becomes the combined yield of food/hammers/gold, and not just food. This would also allow cities with lower yielding food but high levels of hammers/gold to grow large (the original goal of this post).

    But I think we already had a good back-and-fourth on this - there are a few good enhancement ideas (like Camikaze's ideas about geographical mobility limitations) out there too.
     
  12. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    what those complicated solutions are needed for
    just introduce payment for food transportation, and player will not be willing to found megapolices in wasteland.
    3-4 sized cities at best for work resources like silver, oil etc.
     
  13. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    ???? seriously ????

    which is more complicated - (a) internal migration: a system that automatically works the best tiles in the civilization without any actions or micro-management from the player or (b) some type of food-transportation cost optimization that - oh btw - if you want to share food, you have to set up somehow?
     
  14. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    there are two problems with your system
    1. with internal migration cities will grow too quickly
    2. imagine arctic city working 2 oil. ppl will migrate into it and will die from starvation
     
  15. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    ps: honestly i like your idea much. when i will be making emigration 3 i will incorporate it if you dont mind. although it needs some rework to fit the game. i mean it introduces big change into cities system and thus should be implemented carefully.

    as for migration algorhitm itself it may look like:
    1. calculate average citizen yield for each city
    2. sort cities by this value
    3. take NumCities*Modifier cities from bottom (less productive)
    4. move citizens to NumCities*Modifier cities from a top of the list (most productive) with certain probability (it may depend on difference in productivity and population sizes, and some buildings maybe).
     
  16. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    Thanks for the kind words, killmeplease! By all means, incorporate what you can/like (I have a feeling you're more interested in the internal migration parts than the empire-wide food parts) into your mod. In this context, the ideas here certainly need some work. I tend to think big ideas - maybe ideas that are more appropriate for the next iteration of Civ than a mod (although CivIV mods were really impressive - but of course we have no source code yet).

    I know little of modding/programming in general, and think that algorithm looks good. The only issue I have is that the cities with the highest average production aren't necessarily (and may usually NOT be) the cities with the highest yield from the next tile worked. Ideally, you'd be able to rank each tile a civ owns (even if it's unworked), and move a citizen from a city with the lowest yield worked tile to the city with the highest yield unworked tile. (and removed manually selected/deselected tiles from this calculation). This could be a huge resource zapper though - nothing is fun if it adds long turns.

    I also wanted to quickly address your two points:

    1. With the mindset of working this into the current game - you're exactly right. I think there are solutions to this exploit, but they involve allowing faster growth but capping it with something like health, which would be too much to mod into a migration mod (you're not going to rewrite/recode the whole game, obviously).

    If you don't do anything, growth would be faster but the unhappiness control will kick in, which wouldn't let things get too out of hand. Maybe you could embrace it and turn off the "stop growth" button, and see how all those players that ICS everything deal when their lvl 4 cities become lvl 8s (I say that in jest . . . partly).

    2. This issue has a much easier fix - simply don't allow citizens to move to a city that doesn't have access to enough food for an additional person, regardless of tile yield. (I think you already have some sort of food check in your current emigration mod?)
     
  17. Slowpoke

    Slowpoke The Mad Modder

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    As far as farming/urbanization, personally I would just like the civ 2 food caravans, (only buildable on a practical level and not buggy :D). This would allow big cities with lots of specialists supported by gardens and trading posts supported by markets, with food coming in from smaller cities focused entirely on farms. Unfortunately, it may take a lot of coding for food caravans to work without bugging out if cities starve themselves to death or get captured.
     
  18. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    internal migration fits my particular mod well but it will not be the only mod of my.
    i'm planning to create food/production transportation mod someday. it also does not conflict with internal migration idea ;)

    yeah your considerations are right.
    but not from migrant's point of view :)

    this approach seems to be potentially exploitable.
    eg one can build an academy and not working it, until a bunch of migrants arrived.

    what confuses me is that any system i can thought out now is abusable. player can turn every citizen to unemployed specialist and they will move avay. and it feels broken.

    the main problem here is that migration assumes that citizens act as free people but under city micromanagement they come out as slaves.

    city micromanagement is in conceptual conflict with internal migration, that is why any of solutions i can thought out here seems to be unsatisfactory (not ideal).

    yeah this is an easy fix but it does not solve the problem that food transprotation solves (having small cities in arctic, not either of any size or none).
     
  19. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    humm . . . though I admire your idea of thinking of things from the migrant's perspective (from his point of view - he's just going to pack up and move to the city known for being productive), this actually makes those problems worse.

    For arguments sake - say we did ranking by tile (i.e., assume the population has perfect information about where to move to). We could solve the fist problem by simply removing tiles that were manually deselected from the tile ranking, as well as citizens who were manually assigned to another tile, specialist slot, or unemployment. So I could tell a citizen not to work, but he won't move anywhere - so I can't tell him not to work just to move him out of the city.

    The second problem doesn't ever arise. Say an arctic town had two oil tiles, and was otherwise worthless. Once those tiles were worked, nobody would want to move there at all, so the city would never grow beyond 2, even with empire-wide food.

    The problem arises with the other mechanic - the arctic town will have a very high average productivity, which would be a draw for migrants. I'm sure there are solutions to have it both ways - they just aren't immediately obvious to me.
     
  20. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    maybe check if there's >1 surplus food produced and "avoid growth" option is not enabled
     

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