The AI cheats! (Possible spoiler alert)

Askthepizzaguy

Know the Dark Side
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Aug 14, 2007
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I removed the fog of war and watched the AI to see if I could learn any new tactics or early move strategies. I was wondering how they could get such an impressive lead over me, when my tactics are, immodestly, close to flawless. Don't want to spoil anyone's fun, so don't click here unless you want to know how it's done or already know.

Spoiler :
The answer is simple. The AI is a big, fat cheater on Deity mode.

You wonder why you're behind? Because the AI starts with an apparently random assortment of workers, settlers, and military units. They can found 3 cities before you spit out even one worker. They could take you over with the units they start with, archers and warriors and scouts. It's ridiculous.

This was a big let down for me. I was hoping I was being bested by some brilliant game designer. Instead, it's all a simple trick. The AI needs a handicap in order to beat you.

I have to confess, this takes a lot of the fun out of the game for me. It's hard to ignore it. I'm scrambling to get an early lead and I know the cards are completely stacked against me. How can you defeat an empire that starts off with a 3:1 advantage against you?

I know, I know, it's possible, and it's all good fun for those of you who have done it. But I've looked in the magic box and I've seen how it works, now the trick is no longer impressive. I guess I have only myself and my curiosity to blame.

Comments? Feel free to blame me for doing it to myself. But I am seriously saddened to know that instead of brilliant strategic Ai, it's all a big cheat.

Am I whining too much, or did you experience a similar reaction when you found out?
 
Everything in your spoiler is in the manual.

my tactics are close to flawless

Charming.

I do think, without particularly wanting to defend Civ 4 I don't think, that its AI is not below the average of other games. I think most game AI is pretty primitive, and the Civ 4 AI has the problem of making use of all the complicated game rules. I did find it a bit disillusioning, yeah. A lot of game AI is really about creating an illusion of intelligence.
 
Um, yeah. That's why it's Deity. If you want an "even" match, try Monarch.

The AI civs are given an advantage or a disadvantage based on the difficulty level. That's why Civ IV comes with a difficulty level (as did Civ's I - III).

If you look at the cities in Worldbuilder, you may also notice that the AI also gets a research bonus and a production bonus on Deity as well as a discount on maintenance and upgrade costs and a few other perks as well.

We, on the other hand, get the "save and reload" cheat as well as the "look on Civ Fanatics for different strategies" cheat and the "look at your civ, your opponents and the map to decide on a strategy instead of following a cookie-cutter template that may or may not be appropriate for the situation" cheat.
 
No matter Firaxis claims at noble the AI and the human are equal, it is simply not true. The AI "cheats" even at the lowest levels (well, don't know about chieftain, but definitely on noble). This allows it to spam infinite number of cities exactly like in the old civs and to staff every city with 10+ units at the same time limiting the human player with the growing costs of upkeep and the units support. Not to mention it spams all the tiles in the fatcross with cotteges/windmills and still manages to grow huge cities and to build wonders and expensive buildings with just few hammers per turn.
Firaxis simply failed to create an adequate AI for the new economic rules.
 
No matter Firaxis claims at noble the AI and the human are equal, it is simply not true. The AI "cheats" even at the lowest levels (well, don't know about chieftain, but definitely on noble). This allows it to spam infinite number of cities exactly like in the old civs and to staff every city with 10+ units at the same time limiting the human player with the growing costs of upkeep and the units support. Not to mention it spams all the tiles in the fatcross with cotteges/windmills and still manages to grow huge cities and to build wonders and expensive buildings with just few hammers per turn.
Firaxis simply failed to create an adequate AI for the new economic rules.

Don't be silly. If anything on Prince and below the human actually gets a bonus vs the AI's.
 
Spoiler :
Everything in your spoiler is in the manual.

my tactics are close to flawless

Charming.

I do think, without particularly wanting to defend Civ 4 I don't think, that its AI is not below the average of other games. I think most game AI is pretty primitive, and the Civ 4 AI has the problem of making use of all the complicated game rules. I did find it a bit disillusioning, yeah. A lot of game AI is really about creating an illusion of intelligence.

Yes, I know I wasn't being modest. I was trying to convey that I am not a noob when it comes to strategy games. I was wondering why the AI got such an impressive lead over my strategy when I was playing at close to maximum efficiency. Efficient search patters, making use of the slavery tactic, good research order; the whole smash. Early on in the game it is easier to tell that there is literally nothing left you can do to improve on your game. There is an upper limit to what you can accomplish in the game every turn and it's all mathematical. So if I am close to that upper limit of feasible play, yet I am being greatly outclassed by a computer, something is missing from the equation.

Come to find out, the missing variable was the fact that the AI has a different rulebook entirely. That explains the wide discrepency between nearly perfect play and Beyond Perfect AI play.
 
Don't be silly. If anything on Prince and below the human actually gets a bonus vs the AI's.

Very interesting. I would like more detail on your thoughts about this. :)

I may not be a bad player, but I will not deny that I am ignorant about some things. Please enlighten us.
 
Come to find out, the missing variable was the fact that the AI has a different rulebook entirely. That explains the wide discrepency between nearly perfect play and Beyond Perfect AI play.

...and as arrogant as that statement is, it's important to understand if you are going to win against the AI at Deity level. You will not out-research the AI civs. You will not out-produce the AI civs. You will not found Hinduism or Buddhism. Or Judaism, probably.

You can outsmart the AI, though. You can research things that the AI doesnt. You can trade the same tech to 5 different AI civs even if it is a "monopoly tech" when those trades will be to your advantage. You can make smart decisions about which behinds to kiss and which behinds to kick. The AI can't do any of that. No matter how good the AI programmers at Firaxis are, the AI needs its production advantage to compensate for its limitations.

This ain't no simple game like chess.
 
Spoiler :
Um, yeah. That's why it's Deity. If you want an "even" match, try Monarch.

The AI civs are given an advantage or a disadvantage based on the difficulty level. That's why Civ IV comes with a difficulty level (as did Civ's I - III).

If you look at the cities in Worldbuilder, you may also notice that the AI also gets a research bonus and a production bonus on Deity as well as a discount on maintenance and upgrade costs and a few other perks as well.

We, on the other hand, get the "save and reload" cheat as well as the "look on Civ Fanatics for different strategies" cheat and the "look at your civ, your opponents and the map to decide on a strategy instead of following a cookie-cutter template that may or may not be appropriate for the situation" cheat.

The best argument I've seen so far defending the AI cheats. It's true, we can compare notes and peek at the board. But I limit my "save and reload" instances, rare that they happen, for getting a scout instead of 35 gold from my first hut. I justify this because the AI starts with more units than I do and it isn't fair that they can gobble up all the goody huts. I wanted that aspect to be even. But other than that rare instance, I can't justify any cheating. Whats the point of having goody huts when I can't reach them? I don't gobble them all myself, either. I usually just send the one scout. At least it is fair that way. And I don't use the reload cheat for games I intend to post online.

Although I don't consider analyzing the unique situation with a human mind to be cheating, it is simply pitting human mental acumen against AI design and the processing ability of the computer. A good AI could beat you most of the time even without handicaps, like a chess program. Like everything else a computer does, it is possible to teach it how to do things that appear to be very human. Like preparing for conflict before starting a war. Teaching it what to research in different situations. Sharpening its diplomatic program. Teaching the computer to analyze the offensive capabilities of an opponent, and teaching it to look for signs of military buildup.

Everything that a human does, a computer can be taught how to duplicate convincingly. When it comes right down to it, we are machines that can feel. Perhaps the computer may never really feel anything, but it can learn to mimic our behavior and even surpass our processing ability.

Sorry that was a bit of a rant. Oh well...

I don't see how I am being arrogant, though. I resent such an accusation. I think accusing someone of arrogance with such conviction is arrogant in and of itself.
 
It's a game. It's nothing to be so melodramatic about.

If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to buy it or play it. Almost a cliche I know, but it's fitting.

Lastly, when was this ever a secret? Ever since time immemorial... err... Civ I, the Civ AI has always been given freebies in the higher levels. What the heck were you expecting? The Deep Blue Equivalent for Civ? And like this man...

I think most game AI is pretty primitive, and the Civ 4 AI has the problem of making use of all the complicated game rules.

my tactics are close to flawless

:rolleyes:

No matter Firaxis claims at noble the AI and the human are equal, it is simply not true. The AI "cheats" even at the lowest levels (well, don't know about chieftain, but definitely on noble). This allows it to spam infinite number of cities exactly like in the old civs and to staff every city with 10+ units at the same time limiting the human player with the growing costs of upkeep and the units support. Not to mention it spams all the tiles in the fatcross with cotteges/windmills and still manages to grow huge cities and to build wonders and expensive buildings with just few hammers per turn.
Firaxis simply failed to create an adequate AI for the new economic rules.

Umm.... looking through the XML files.... I don't see anything that gives the AI bonuses at Noble and below.... in fact the Human still gets a bonus at Noble (I think 5% bonus against barbs). I think most of these claims of the AI somehow getting 10 units in an instant are unfounded... why don't you play with the fog of war off or just give yourself a ton of EP points and see how the AI behaves?
 
Point Served, Post Deleted, Feelings Hurt.

:ar15: [pissed]

I win.
 
Point Served, Post Deleted, Feelings Hurt.

:ar15: [pissed]

I win.
 
All right that's enough, folks.

I didn't start this thread to be bashed over and over by people. I will no longer contribute. It is just a game after all, and I was hoping to learn from some of the better players on here and share some thoughts. But some of you are lashing out at me for no reason that I can see. Those comments are not welcome here and I do believe some may be against the forum rules for treating others with respect.

Thanks go out to all those who responded in a friendly, informative, or helpful manner. But frankly much of the behavior on this thread is appalling, so I'm done.

The "deleted" post:
There were others, but this one is particularly appalling.

Spoiler :
What he's basically saying is he's upset that he can't win without cheating himself.

"I removed the fog of war and watched the AI to see if I could learn any new tactics or early move strategies"

If your such a strategic genius with near flawless tactics.. Why are you using world builder to learn from an artificial intelligence? Which tells me your "processing power" doesn't even surpass that of a numerical code written by "another human being".

It sounds more like to me, you play on a much lower difficulty level and you started a deity game to try and learn how to play from... an artificial intelligence?...

"Everything that a human does, a computer can be taught how to duplicate convincingly. When it comes right down to it, we are machines that can feel. Perhaps the computer may never really feel anything, but it can learn to mimic our behavior and even surpass our processing ability."

That paragraph tells me everything I need to know, did you even read what you typed? The computer can surpass our processing ability? The human brain and a computer processor are two completely different engines. A Computer is incapable of "thinking" all it does is calculate numbers, it is a difference engine it takes the numbers 12 and 10 and chooses the larger number.. thats it..

A Human brain may not calculate 124414-124+1899/1 = in ten seconds but thats not what the human brain is designed to do, a human brain can plan, it can think, it can strategies, it can create.

It sounds to me like you want to be dead inside like a computer and not feel, I'm sorry your life was so tramatic.


There were also some snide remarks about being a pizza delivery man, which I am not by the way. I am a full time college student. But since the person chose to delete them so quickly, they must have felt ashamed, and I won't repeat them.
______________________________

That unhappy business aside,

Good-bye, all! It's been mostly fun. Warm regards to all posters on all of my threads who chose to participate with respect and good humor. Most of you are class acts.
 
I don't see anything that gives the AI bonuses at Noble and below

No, it gets some even at Noble (reference for highlights). Another example: at all levels it can see a little into the fog of war to compensate for the fact that it doesn't remember where it saw units, nor does it try to predict specifically where they will move.
 
Uh, yeah, it sucks that Civ's AI cannot and will never be able to outsmart a human player, but do you honestly think you've made some earth-shattering revelation by posting this here? The fact that the AI starts out with serious bonuses on the higher levels is common knowledge
 
Um, yeah. That's why it's Deity. If you want an "even" match, try Monarch.

The AI civs are given an advantage or a disadvantage based on the difficulty level. That's why Civ IV comes with a difficulty level (as did Civ's I - III).

If you look at the cities in Worldbuilder, you may also notice that the AI also gets a research bonus and a production bonus on Deity as well as a discount on maintenance and upgrade costs and a few other perks as well.

We, on the other hand, get the "save and reload" cheat as well as the "look on Civ Fanatics for different strategies" cheat and the "look at your civ, your opponents and the map to decide on a strategy instead of following a cookie-cutter template that may or may not be appropriate for the situation" cheat.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

This whole threads' gotta be a spoof, right?

Right?:confused:
 
Fact: Current technology does not allow the creation of AIs that can play well as a human.

Either play multiplayer or accept that the AI needs help to provide you with a challenge. Think of the handicap in golf. This goes for all computer games of any type, exception of Chess and a few other simple games.
 


The best argument I've seen so far defending the AI cheats. It's true, we can compare notes and peek at the board. But I limit my "save and reload" instances, rare that they happen, for getting a scout instead of 35 gold from my first hut. I justify this because the AI starts with more units than I do and it isn't fair that they can gobble up all the goody huts. I wanted that aspect to be even. But other than that rare instance, I can't justify any cheating. Whats the point of having goody huts when I can't reach them? I don't gobble them all myself, either. I usually just send the one scout. At least it is fair that way. And I don't use the reload cheat for games I intend to post online.

Although I don't consider analyzing the unique situation with a human mind to be cheating, it is simply pitting human mental acumen against AI design and the processing ability of the computer. A good AI could beat you most of the time even without handicaps, like a chess program. Like everything else a computer does, it is possible to teach it how to do things that appear to be very human. Like preparing for conflict before starting a war. Teaching it what to research in different situations. Sharpening its diplomatic program. Teaching the computer to analyze the offensive capabilities of an opponent, and teaching it to look for signs of military buildup.

Everything that a human does, a computer can be taught how to duplicate convincingly. When it comes right down to it, we are machines that can feel. Perhaps the computer may never really feel anything, but it can learn to mimic our behavior and even surpass our processing ability.

Sorry that was a bit of a rant. Oh well...

I don't see how I am being arrogant, though. I resent such an accusation. I think accusing someone of arrogance with such conviction is arrogant in and of itself.

Reloading to get scouts instead of gold. In other words you cheat and still can't win?

Chess = finite set of moves out to n turns, supercomputer can crunch. Civ = much more complicated over the course of an entire game. Don't ask too much from programmers okay?

Civ AI can't think more than 1 turn in advance, according to those who have looked at the savegame coding.

A human can think in the long-term, short-term, factor in tradeoffs, and gain big production or research or gold bonuses from a variety of methods, like trading techs and maps, using espionage effectively, efficiently specializing cities (the AI does really idiotic things sometimes, just look at the national wonder combos it uses sometimes), etc. A human player also has a HUGE advantage when it comes to warfare, which is why the AI programmers gave some units and traits (skirms, bowmen, protective, and free archers to higher-difficulty level AIs) to help out the AI. AI is also not good at diplomacy so you can get blocs to hate each other or otherwise manipulate world politics.

About war: AI still attacks suicidally sometimes, against well-entrenched positions. And the AI is pretty crappy about using collateral damage efficiently unless it has so many units that it can't help but use it decently well. AI is also helpless against massed bombers and fighters, not to mention fast cav and tank rushes. AI also doesn't promote well and sometimes wastes its GGs like it does with other GPs that it gets. In short, if you have ANY siege units, and even half the power rating of an AI, even on Deity, you should win more than you lose and eventually level the playing field and then turn the tide completely. (If you have air or mobile artillery, plus blitzers like tanks, you should always win even when outnumbered 2 to 1 or even more. The AI is hopeless against massed air and blitzing units, even with the max-capacity air nerf. Deity level on Road to War proves this easily, with Russia's mammoth army STILL unable to contain a human-controlled Germany.)
 
Although I don't consider analyzing the unique situation with a human mind to be cheating, it is simply pitting human mental acumen against AI design and the processing ability of the computer. A good AI could beat you most of the time even without handicaps, like a chess program. Like everything else a computer does, it is possible to teach it how to do things that appear to be very human. Like preparing for conflict before starting a war. Teaching it what to research in different situations. Sharpening its diplomatic program. Teaching the computer to analyze the offensive capabilities of an opponent, and teaching it to look for signs of military buildup.

Everything that a human does, a computer can be taught how to duplicate convincingly. When it comes right down to it, we are machines that can feel. Perhaps the computer may never really feel anything, but it can learn to mimic our behavior and even surpass our processing ability.

Easier said than done! ;)

In theory you're right that a computer could technically surpass our processing ability. However I think you're not appreciating that many of the tasks we find quite simple are considerably more difficult and complicated when written as a hard-fast algorithm. Consider an algorithm that would evaluate the value of a player's land. A human mind can do it with a bit of hand waving and fuzzy sort of reasoning whereas an AI would struggle to make any sensible answer. It may sound silly but computers are particularly good at doing things which are very algorithmic in nature and not much else (ignoring fancy things like trained neural nets etc.). Forming long term strategies and goals are examples of tasks which are not so algorithmic and are very difficult for an AI to perform.

It sounds like you enjoy musing on very philosophical problems and especially those related to the reality of aritifical intelligence and whether the human mind is deterministic etc. For example, do you believe that given a large enough and powerful enough computer you could mimick any human mind? Do you believe that with sufficient processing power that an AI would realise itself and become conscious? What is consciousness anyway? Would it be moral to have prejudice against a machine that can think as well as a person based souly on the fact it is merely a machine? Would such a machine have any rights?

I understand your fascination with these sorts of questions as I am fascinated by them myself.


As for your finding out how the AI cheats at Deity, sorry but this is not news to many people here. Yes you feel cheated but can you conceive of a way to improve the AI? It's an incredibly difficult challenge and would require the most expert of AI experts. Even if a better AI was made, can you imagine how much slower the game would run? To be frank, it'll be a LONG time before personal computers will surpass the processing capacities of their operators in everyday tasks. I reckon having an AI play civ better than a human would be more difficult than programming an AI to run a country, seriously!

By the way, there are some posters in these forums who are immature - just try to ignore them as best you can. They probably reacted violently because they thought you were complaining about the bonuses the AI gets at Deity. Some people need to slow down and read things more carefully before opening their mouths, or, as it were, dancing their fingers across their keyboards.

Also, I don't agree with your assertion that we are machines that can feel. I used to believe that but I can't help but agree with the many who believe there is something more to the human mind which makes it different to how a computer works. In other words, the brain is not just a machine using biological matter (whatever that means). There is something not yet explained (and possibly never will be explained) to the mind which makes it somehow more magical.:)
 
Playing against AI is mastabat**n anyway. There is such a thing as Multiplayer you know.
 
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