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The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Modpacks' started by thamis, Nov 29, 2005.

  1. Drogear

    Drogear Prince

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    But if the plague is reduced to only inflict towns with unhealtiness its easy to combat, in civ3 there was no good way of defending against it, right?

    I would like a plague effect if it can be linked to unhealth and if the AI can cope with it (avoiding unhealth via all the new buildings). This would futher validate emphasizing health structures, now its profitable to do so but it would be more important.
     
  2. Notarzt

    Notarzt graphics doctor

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    That depends greatly on the game-speed you're playing on.
    For marathon 20 turns would be ok. (I thinks thats about 7 turns in normal?)
     
  3. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    That's what I thought.
     
  4. Pvblivs

    Pvblivs Scriptor

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    Do you think that?

    Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubonic_plague#Historical_epidemics
    And http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest#Antike_bis_Fr.C3.BChmittelalter (German)

    It was a "worldwide" (considering the scope TAM) disease, maybe it was just Typhus. Athens lost probably 1/3 of its population. Even in the bible they speak of some kind of plague.

    I wonder if this is just a lie the historians tell us ;)

    The "second" plague of Justinian was about 600 A.D. This, indeed may be too late.

    As I said... It can develop in big cities that are (maybe almost) unhealthy. In such places diseases could occur often enough, even in the ancient centuries.
     
  5. Pvblivs

    Pvblivs Scriptor

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    It does. Maybe not the "Black Death" but some kind and sometimes a great plague always struck people, killing a big chunk of the peoples of the known world.

    1) Ok, maybe 10 turns as a maximum. That's not very much for one city. Maybe a city could be immune if once infected for 100 turns or so.
    2) You just have to consider your aims with a plague. If you want people to stick to health because of plagues you have to give a vast effect. The esponent is there to only affect big cities. Big cities big problems if it comes to diseases. You'll need some kind of esponent if you want it to have an effect on big cities while not having crucial effects on smaller ones. Anyway it was just a number you can tweak.
    3) Trade routes are calculated anyway. In terms of gold. So you calculate the same but with different purposes. For units, maybe your right. I should have added that it is only if an infected unit comes into a worked city tile of a non-infected city. This can be calculated like any worker-tile problems with enemy units.
    4) Yup. If the plague lasts 10 turns, maybe the chance for a unit to get infected being in a city is like 10%.

    Anyway: It was just a conceptual proposal.

    For sure plagues are annoying. Everything you cannot foresee in some way is annoying. That's why gamers complain about it.
    But if it's just something that happens to unhealthy cities, the more unhealthy, the riskier, the healthier, the lesser the problems about it. You can always calculate it.

    But I lake such things as factors that you have to react or at least plan with. That's life. Not all is strategy-to-the-limit.
     
  6. thamis

    thamis King of Kish

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    If we have a plague concept (and there were many sorty of plagues in ancient times, not necessarily smallpox), it has to be a simple one. It should rather be expressed as a sudden increase in unhealthiness for a few turns in a city. No fancy stuff like units carrying it, that would slow the game down significantly.
     
  7. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    I think plague related to big unhealthines would be nice...
     
  8. Pvblivs

    Pvblivs Scriptor

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    The point about plagues is: They have to spread in order to be relevant. How is almost irrelevant. Fix them to trade and routes if you can implement that.

    Mostly trade routes are between big cities, so they seem very appropriate for a foreign spread.

    How is "the script" that spreads religions? Can't we adopt that for plagues as well? It seems to me that, speaking of spreading, it is almost the same...

    Regarding units... This would be beautiful. Think about the spanish flu. Mainly it was first spread by soldiers during and after the 1st world war killing 2,5 to 5% of the worlds human population!
    But if it would be too difficult to give a unit such a "promotion", we can let that be...

    Concerning effects... If we can manage to kill up to 20% of the population of the infected cities (speaking of population numbers not of city levels), it is only a question of the formular how much unhealthiness is added to a city. Maybe (unhealthy persons)+67%.

    Take the following scenario:

    We have seven cities, size 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14 and size 16. All cities have support for 16 healthy citizens. And unhealthy citizens according to their size.

    Linear Formular: Disease effect = round(unhealhy citizend x 0.67)
    City size / Healthy / Unhealthy / Disease effect / Overall Health
    16 / 16 / -16 / -10 / -10
    14 / 16 / -14 / -9 / -7
    12 / 16 / -12 / -8 / -4
    10 / 16 / -10 / -7 / -1
    8 / 16 / -8 / -5 / +3
    6 / 16 / -6 / -4 / +6
    4 / 16 / -4 / -3 / +9

    Quadratic Formular: Disease effect = round((unhealhy citizend / 4) ^ 2)
    City size / Healthy / Unhealthy / Disease effect / Overall Health
    16 / 16 / -16 / -16 / -16
    14 / 16 / -14 / -12 / -10
    12 / 16 / -12 / -9 / -5
    10 / 16 / -10 / -6 / +0
    8 / 16 / -8 / -4 / +4
    6 / 16 / -6 / -2 / +8
    4 / 16 / -4 / -1 / +11

    Cubic Formular: Disease effect = round((unhealhy citizend / 6) ^ 3)
    City size / Healthy / Unhealthy / Disease effect / Overall Health
    16 / 16 / -16 / -19 / -19
    14 / 16 / -14 / -13 / -13
    12 / 16 / -12 / -8 / -4
    10 / 16 / -10 / -5 / +1
    8 / 16 / -8 / -2 / +6
    6 / 16 / -6 / -1 / +9
    4 / 16 / -4 / -0 / +12

    As you can see, concerning small cities, the cubic, esponent formular is much more fair compared to the linear or even to the quadratic. As small cities never have that much health support as big cities (ignoring resources), they naturally will not have that big bonus. But big cities really will starve VERY fast. Too fast!

    However, you could ceil the health malus though with, let's say 33% of the city size, thus, the last table would look like this:

    Cubic Formular: Disease effect = min(round((unhealhy citizend / 6) ^ 3), city size / 3)
    City size / Healthy / Unhealthy / Disease effect / Overall Health
    16 / 16 / -16 / -5 / -5
    14 / 16 / -14 / -5 / -3
    12 / 16 / -12 / -4 / +0
    <- turning point, from here downwards we starve through cubes ;)
    10 / 16 / -10 / -3 / +3
    8 / 16 / -8 / -2 / +6
    6 / 16 / -6 / -1 / +9
    4 / 16 / -4 / -0 / +12


    You may notice that a big city, due to it's size will receive a health malus, but it would not be thus a big deal, while little cities still profit from a cubic calculation. (see the disease effect, for size 18, it would be -6, for size 20 -7 and so on). So big health problems only for really big cities!
     
  9. BenG

    BenG Chieftain

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    Yeah, I did not necessarily mean “the black death” although I'm sure the bubonic plague was around during ancient times. I just thought that plague in general could be used as an additional incentive to keep cities healthy and put a check on city growth.
     
  10. BenG

    BenG Chieftain

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    Thats exactly how I thought it would best work. Only random in the sense that it would randomly occur in unhealthy cities. And yes no unit spread.
     
  11. Ankenaton

    Ankenaton "The Heretic"

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    Agree: I hated the plague in Civ III TAM. Sometimes you have to place a limit on the variables that the computer has to play with. This game already chugs and lags way too much.:cry: :cry: :cry:
     
  12. Locutus

    Locutus King of the Collective

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    Not really, the game can handle a crapload of Python code before it starts to slow down. I would still advocate simplicity from a design point of view, but you don't really have to worry about code complexity (unless you're gonna do huge complex for-loops with every unit move, but I doubt that would be meaningful here). Some of the default scenarios have a lot of fairly heavy Python code, but performance is not affected at all. If the mod is currently slow that's probably because of the size and number of assets on the map. The scripting load is pretty low in Civ4.
     
  13. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    To simulate the epidemics of the ancient ages a script that adds unhealthiness fo X turns in a city is enough, IMO.
     
  14. j100telecaster

    j100telecaster Chieftain

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    Great mod, thanks. :goodjob:
     
  15. Shqype

    Shqype Shqyptar

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    We're not too far from a new release, v1.7, so be sure to check back soon with the update! It will be a very nice improvement from the last ;) :)
     
  16. j100telecaster

    j100telecaster Chieftain

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    Great news, thanks again.
     
  17. thamis

    thamis King of Kish

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    Woa, I have to digest that first...
     
  18. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    I was thinking... It is possible to import models from other games? It would be cool if you could import models from the fan-made mod Rome - Total Realism...
     
  19. fuji

    fuji Chieftain

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    Indeed RTR's models really fit in with this mod ! But i don't think the models will be possible, maybe just the UI's
     
  20. SteelerNation

    SteelerNation Chieftain

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    First, to all of those who have been involved in creating this mod, excellent job. I am consistently impressed by the level of knowledge, programming and skill that you have. I really enjoy playing your creation and look forward to future versions.

    After playing the mod, I have some observations/questions:

    1. Is there any reason why Sparta and Corinth were left out of the Mycenaean city list?

    2. Do you have any plans to replace the hoplite skin and graphics with original skin/graphics (such as a Spartan hoplite)?

    3. After achieving road building, I noticed that I can build railroads and move my units all over the map without expending any movement points. Roads, especially Roman roads, increased the speed with which troops were moved, but not to that extent. May be road building could lead to improved roads, which would only cost ¼ a movement point instead?

    4. In the games that I have played, the AI never seems to build wonders, even when it has the technology to do so.

    5. Have you considered scripting in natural disasters such as volcanic eruptions, earthquakes or floods? (this may slow the game down too much).

    6. Have you considered giving the religions certain positives and negatives?

    Some or all of the above-referenced items may have been dealt with in either (i) a prior post, which if so, I apologize for bringing the issue(s) up again; or (ii) version 1.7, which I look forward to playing.

    Again, tremendous mod and effort.
     

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