The Apostolic Palace Guide

[Yxklyx]

*** WORK IN PROGRESS ***
The Apostolic Palace Guide

A guide is sorely needed I think. I will try to condense everything into one concise post in this thread...I am editing this right now so just refresh to see updates... of course I am no expert so if you find any errors post here and I will correct this first post.

Warning: These rules are definitive for BTS version 3.17. Normal Game Speed is assumed.

Apostolic Palace 400 +4 +2 (prophet)

The Apostolic Palace (AP) becomes available to be built when you have researched Theology (Diplomatic Victory must also be enabled when starting the game). You must be running a State Religion in order to build it and it can only be built in a city where your State Religion holds sway. If this condition changes after you have started building it - its production will be halted until the condition is again met. After it is complete, you may switch State Religions (or to no State Religion); however, the Palace always retains the religion that your Civ had when you completed it. This religion is called the AP Religion. The Palace allows a religion to play a major part in international affairs, centuries before the United Nations makes its appearance. All effects (except for possible Unhappiness from Defiance) of the AP cease when the current owner of the AP has gained the knowledge of Mass Media. Note that the AP can coexist with the United Nations.

--- Owner
The Owner of the AP is the Civ that owns the city in which the AP is in. The Owner is always one of the two candidates for the Resident Election - regardless of his current religious or Defiance status. Note that the owner is not necessarily a Full Member.

--- Resident
A Resident Election is the first proposal that occurs after the AP is built. Afterwards, a Resident Election occurs periodically in place of another proposal. The winner (Leading Candidate) of the Resident Election becomes the Resident and gets to choose which proposal is voted on if any when the appropriate time comes.

- Abandoned Residency
If a non-Owner Resident ceases to be a Full Member by switching to Free Religion or converting to another Religion, no further proposals are possible until the scheduled turn for a Resident Election arrives. This can lead to many turns (up to 50) with nothing happening relating to the AP.

--- Bonus Hammers
Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals and Shrine belonging to the AP Religion each generate +2 for any Civ. This bonus is generated even if that Civ is not running a State Religion.

--- Membership

- Full Member
Must be running the AP religion as a State Religion. Number of votes is equal to TWICE the total population number of all cities in which the AP religion is present.

- Voting Member
Must have at least one city with the AP religion and is not running the AP religion as a State Religion. Number of votes is equal to the total population number of all cities in which the AP religion is present.

- Member
Either a Full or Voting Member.

- Non-Member
No cities with the AP religion. No votes.

--- Proposals

- Proposal Cycle: Proposals take place every 10 turns (14 turns on Epic). There are 4 proposals scheduled between each Resident Election so that means a new election is held every 50 turns; however, this interval can be greatly diminished if there are no possible proposals on the turn that a proposal is scheduled to be made. If this is the case then the next scheduled proposal is moved forward to next turn (instead of 10 turns away) - if that proposal is an election then a new election is held.

Proposal Cycle Example: On turn 1, an election is held. On turn 11 there is a scheduled proposal but there are no possible proposals to be made. The same thing occurs on turns 12, 13, and 14. On turn 15, another election is held. If, on the other hand, there were a possible proposal on turn 14 then the next election would be held on turn 24.

- Vassals: It would appear that Vassal membership status is ignored when determining proposal conditions (except for Diplomatic Victory). For instance, you cannot Declare War on a Vassal Non-Member and a Vassal Full Member cannot be forced into War. Vassals will always vote the same way as their Master unless they are being proposed for a Diplomatic Victory.

1. Declare war on X
Prerequisite: One Full Member must be at war with X and at least one Non-Vassal Full Member must not be at war with X, and X must be a Non-Vassal Non-Member.
If passed, all Members are instantly at war with X.

2. Trade Embargo against X
Prerequisite: One Full Member must be trading with X, and X must be a Non-Member.
If passed, all Members now have Closed Borders with X and all trade agreements with X not made within the last 10 turns are cancelled.

3. Force Peace on X
Prerequisite: Civ X must be a Full Member and at war with a Member.
If passed, a 10-turn unbreakable peace treaty is implemented among all Members.

4. Open Borders
Prerequisite: The Resident or a Full Member currently does not have an Open Border treaty with one or more Full Members.
If passed, all Members now have Open Borders with each other.

5. Defensive Pact
Prerequisite: All Members are not currently at war and are eligible to form Defensive Pacts with each other.
If passed, all Members now have Defensive Pact treaties with each other.

6. Assign city from X to Y:
Prerequisite: Civ X must be a Voting Member, but not Full Member, and Civ Y must be a Full Member. The two civs must not be at war. Civ Y must have a higher culture on the city plot (not the city itself) than Civ X does.
If passed the city is transferred intact with all buildings but no units.

7. Diplomatic (Religious) Victory
Prerequisite: ALL Civs in the game must be Members and a single Civ cannot be supplying 75% or more of the vote.
One of the candidates will be the Owner (even if that Civ is not running the AP Religion), the other candidate will be the Full Member with the most votes who is not the Owner. A Civ that is a Vassal is eligible for Victory.
To pass, this proposal requires 75% of the vote and it cannot be Defied.

8. Resident Election
This proposal occurs automatically every 5 Proposal Cycles (50 turns) in place of any other proposal. This is the first proposal that occurs after the AP is built.
One of the candidates will be the Owner (even if that Civ is not running the AP Religion), the other candidate will be the Full Member with the most votes who is not the Owner. If there is only one possible candidate then that Civ is automatically elected.

--- Defiance

Any Member can Defy most proposals (except for Diplomatic Victory and Resident Election). When a proposal is Defied it automatically fails. If the proposal would have passed had there been no Defiance then the Defier suffers three ramifications:

1. He loses his Full Member status if he is currently a Full Member.
2. He loses the +2 bonus from AP Religion Buildings he currently has and builds while in Defiance.
3. His current cities with the AP Religion acquire Villain status. New cities captured, founded or converted to the AP Religion after the Defiance vote has occurred do not acquire Villain status.

In order to undo ramifications #1 and #2, the Civ must vote yes on a proposal (Resident Election excluded) and that proposal must pass. #3 lasts for 20 turns regardless of any other events.

--- Villain - "The world considers you a villain!"

Cities with Villain status suffer a Happiness Penalty of 5 . The Happiness Penalty lasts for 20 turns but this duration is reduced for other religions present in the city. Further Defiances prolong the duration of Villain status.

--- Nuances

1. Since a proposal is enacted in the turn subsequent to that it in which it is voted on, some odd behavior may occur if the game situation changes during that short 1 turn interval. For instance, if a Diplomatic Victory vote comes up and in that same turn I create a distant colony which does not have the AP Religion (and so is not a Member) thereby negating the prerequisite for the Diplomatic Victory (i.e. all Civs must be a Member).

2. There is a bug with ramification #2 under Defiance. I captured a Shrine right after I had Defied. The Shrine as expected gave 2 after I captured it. When I voted Yes for the next proposal that passed, the Shrine now gave 4 ! I also rushed a Temple in the same city that gave me the same.

3. If you are part of a Trade Embargo proposal that is passed even if you vote No - it could be a very long time before you can communicate with the target. If you can't afford that you'll have to Defy.

--- Thoughts

The Open Borders proposal is weird. Say for example that I'm the Resident and there are two Voting Members who I have Closed Borders with and a Full Member who I have Open Borders with. Say also that the two Voting Members do not wish Open Borders with me. The Open Borders AP proposal will not pop up in this case because I have Open Borders with the only Full Member; however, if I Close Borders with the Full Member beforehand then the proposal will pop up and I will be able to have Open Borders with everyone.

To win a Diplomatic Victory all Civs must control at least one city with the AP's religion (i.e. member). There are a couple of easy ways you can get a non-member to become a member. If you have Open Borders you can gift that Civ a missionary (the AI appears to always use it to spread religion in one of its cities, even if it's running a Theocracy). You can also gift a Civ a worthless city you control that has the religion.

 

[hexem3117]

Moar plz plz

 

[nbcman]

@Yxklyx

A civ does not need to have the AP religion as their state religion to receive hammers from AP religion buildings like temples and monasteries.

 

[Neoclast]

Buddy tested recently after winning a game in which he had built the AP. He switched religions after the game was won but the AP did not switch religions. Thus if the AP is built for the Christians, it stays for the Christians.

Plus I agree that you do not have to be the religion to get the Hammer bonus.

 

[Yxklyx]

Buddy tested recently after winning a game in which he had built the AP. He switched religions after the game was won but the AP did not switch religions. Thus if the AP is built for the Christians, it stays for the Christians.

Plus I agree that you do not have to be the religion to get the Hammer bonus.

Is this with the latest version of BTS? I corrected that info and removed much of the opening lines which are apparently filled with errors. I'll double check some things tonight.

 

[nullspace]

Excellent guide, Yxklyx. I've never understood some of specifics of the AP. You should post this in the Strategy Articles section.

My next question would be: How does the AI decide which candidate to vote for in resident elections, and how do you get them to vote Yes for diplomatic victory?

 

[Yxklyx]

Excellent guide, Yxklyx. I've never understood some of specifics of the AP. You should post this in the Strategy Articles section.

My next question would be: How does the AI decide which candidate to vote for in resident elections, and how do you get them to vote Yes for diplomatic victory?

Thanks! You're getting into more of the strategy aspect of the AP. I just want to lay out the rules here. The post could eventually get moved to another forum.

 

[J-man]

So, if you own the AP but your running the Free Religion civic, you still can be elected Resident?
and do still get the 2 hammer bonus if you run FR?

 

[Ghpstage]

So, if you own the AP but your running the Free Religion civic, you still can be elected Resident?
and do still get the 2 hammer bonus if you run FR?

Yes ALL buildings of the AP religion (Temples, Monasteries, Cathedrals and Shrine) will give +2 regardless of what religion (or lack thereof) the owner is. The only thing that removes the hammers is defying a resolution.

Excellent guide, Yxklyx. I've never understood some of specifics of the AP. You should post this in the Strategy Articles section.

My next question would be: How does the AI decide which candidate to vote for in resident elections, and how do you get them to vote Yes for diplomatic victory?

In short make them like you, they vote for the person they like most, although they must pass a threshhold (I think they need to be at friendly first).
-They will never vote for someone they are at war with.
-They will always vote for themselves
-Vassals vote for masters unless the Vassal is eligible in the vote


But from these rules,
The 2 civs picked as eligable for a diplo victory will be:
-The owner of the AP (regardlesss of religion!)
-The civ with the AP religion as state AND the largest AP religion population (Largest full member basically)

The easiest way to an AP win is to make yourself the only candidate!

The Art of AP Cheesing
This will allow you to be the only candidate in both the AP residency and Diplo victory votes:
To do this build the AP in a religion that noone has as a State Religion, luckily the Theology tech often comes with its own! (Christanity almost always ends up a dead religion if you found it and don't spread it!).
If noone has the AP religion as state, the owner (Should be you) will be the only candidate.

Then spread the AP religion to a decent number of your friends cities (You can be Hindu and still win by owning the AP) and one of each of everyone elses cities.

This part can be tricky especially with Tokugawa due to a lack of Open Borders, to get around this:
-Settle a new (preferably poor) city near they're territory
-Spread the AP religion to it
-Either liberate the city or gift it to the civ in question
That civ will have 1 vote in the AP! (well more when it grows but will be pretty pitiful)

The other nice thing about this is you will be able to hoard the +2 bonus for temples monasteries etc of the AP religion and abuse the other available votes.

 

[nbcman]

Is this with the latest version of BTS? I corrected that info and removed much of the opening lines which are apparently filled with errors. I'll double check some things tonight.

Yes. I play 3.17. The AP religion is the religion that the AP builder is in when the AP is built. Also, I just finished a game where my civs state religion was Jewish but spread hinduism (AP was built by Isabella who had hindu as her state religion) around my empire for the AP .

 

[MonRiverMonarch]

Is it possible for a Barbarian city to have votes? I think the current game I'm playing has a Barbarian city with a pop 9 with 9 votes? or was I seeing things? I'll take a look at the game save when I get home tonight

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you want walkthroughs of AP cheesing for the win, do a search for "AP Gauntlet". I have 3 such games on emperor difficulty (They're a bit dated so my play is stronger nowadays, but good for demonstration of methodology). Izzy, Washington, and Shaka were my 3 leaders used in the 3 games.

 

[Yxklyx]

So, if you own the AP but your running the Free Religion civic, you still can be elected Resident?
and do still get the 2 hammer bonus if you run FR?

Yes and Yes.

After some testing I made some major changes to the Defiance/Villain sections. I verified that a Civ in Defiance is still eligible for Resident if he owns the AP. Found a bug with the bonus hammers and Religious buildings - you can get extra hammers in certain cases.

 

[eris]

It is my belief that the AP stays with the state religion of the owner civ as it was when the AP was started. For instance, if you were Christian when you started building the AP and changed to Hindu during the build, the religion associated with the AP would still be Christian. Have I gotten something wrong? Wouldn't be the first time, and probably not the last.

 

[Yxklyx]

It is my belief that the AP stays with the state religion of the owner civ as it was when the AP was started. For instance, if you were Christian when you started building the AP and changed to Hindu during the build, the religion associated with the AP would still be Christian. Have I gotten something wrong? Wouldn't be the first time, and probably not the last.

You might be right. If someone else can confirm or I'm able to test this myself, I'll make the change in the guide.

Does the unmodded game tell you when the next proposal is scheduled to be made? I've been using the BUG mod and that information is there for me in the Members tab in the Victories window, but I don't recall if it became available with the BUG mod. I've used this information to declare war on a non member right before a vote is up for instance. Or you could count the turns from when the AP was built.

 

[Bob the Barbari]

IIRC the number of votes is determined by population of cities with AP religion and the number of buildings for that religion owned by the player.

 

[MonRiverMonarch]

IIRC the number of votes is determined by population of cities with AP religion and the number of buildings for that religion owned by the player.

This applies to the Barbarian cities as well. In my current game, the barb city of Antioch has a pop of 9, and also has 9 votes (and no buildings). The city was converted to the AP religion sometime during the game. I totally missed this city most of the game because it was shaded black & was right in the middle of Justinian's empire, which is almost the same exact color. I've never had a barb city survive this long & get that big in any game I've played. I didn't think they would convert to a religion either.

 

[Yxklyx]

This applies to the Barbarian cities as well. In my current game, the barb city of Antioch has a pop of 9, and also has 9 votes (and no buildings). The city was converted to the AP religion sometime during the game. I totally missed this city most of the game because it was shaded black & was right in the middle of Justinian's empire, which is almost the same exact color. I've never had a barb city survive this long & get that big in any game I've played. I didn't think they would convert to a religion either.

Antioch? It seems that the Barbarians captured a city which already had the AP religion in it. I don't think buildings affect your vote total - I will check again when I have time. I know that last night I checked a Voting Member that had 81 total population (with some Temples) and he had exactly 81 votes. Maybe the buildings only count for Full Members but I don't think they do.

 

[UWHabs]

It is my belief that the AP stays with the state religion of the owner civ as it was when the AP was started. For instance, if you were Christian when you started building the AP and changed to Hindu during the build, the religion associated with the AP would still be Christian. Have I gotten something wrong? Wouldn't be the first time, and probably not the last.

No, it's when it was completed. I had a game where I was in one religion, switched to a different one the turn before it was built, and it ended up in the religion I switched to. Then 5 turns later, I switched back and the AP was still in the new religion (Christianity). They key here is that the city building it has to have both religions in the city to do this.

 

[MonRiverMonarch]

Antioch? It seems that the Barbarians captured a city which already had the AP religion in it.

I think Antioch is usually a Holy Roman city, which isn't a civ in my current game. So I don't think it was captured. I could be wrong tho. I was shocked to see a barb city that late in my game, it just slipped through for centuries & I never noticed it. It should be noted, the barb city never votes on resolutions in the game I'm playing. I think they did vote on the AP resident, which is when I first discovered the city existed I think there has been so much warfare that the surrounding civs aren't attacking it. It's on the other side of the continent from where I'm at, so I'm not bothering them either.