The Apostolic Palace in FfH?

[MagisterCultuum]

Personally I think this would be a great addition to Erebus, but it seems a little redundant to have both the palace and the Patriarch. If I had to choose between them, I would choose the AP, but preferably with a few changes to promote holy wars.

The world wonder limit should be raised to at least 2 or 3 (1 per religion actually seems like too much for me. I don't think most religions were ever unified enough for it to make since anyway, whether on Earth or Erebus). (I would suggest that they require different state religions, but schisms could be interesting too. If there were more than one per religion, could each civ be forced to choose sides and be ejected from the other one, right before a war would most likely break out between the APs' owners). What would be needed to make multiple APs work?

If the Patriarchs still exist, I think their "Call Holy War" ability should be replaced with something like "Convene Holy Council," which would trigger a vote on something. The xp cost could remain the same. It might make sense to get rid of the current random voting triggers (expect maybe for electing a new resident) and make the Patriarch necessary for this AP effect to be used. It would probably also make sense for only the AP resident to get the patriarch promotion and/or only allow it ability to be used when in the AP's city. In the second case, the AP city's owner could close their boarders with the Patriarch's owner to prevent an unwanted vote. (I also think that Patriarchs should be given powerful offensive religion specific spells that would lure you to have then fighting abroad away from the AP until a vote is needed)

A few more resolutions would also be nice. How does an ultimatum forcing members to purge a specific foreign religion from all its cities within a certain number of turns sound? How about outlawing the use of certain mana types? Or of using spells within certain spheres? Should relocating the Holy city be possible? How about forcing the adoption of the religion specific civics?

It might also be nice if Religious Heroes would abandon players who defy the rulings of their faith (but before this is implemented, we should really come up with a better mechanism for their abandonment. They should either become available to others civs, or just switch sides to someone who still follows the faith). Alternately, the AP should allow civs who have defied past resolutions to be excommunicated, forcing them to switch to "No State Religion."

 

[Calavente]

hmm..
england was excommunicated by the papacy.
and it still had a state religion. so excommnication doesn't mean non-state religion.
and I love the patriarch as it is

 

[onedreamer]

yeah excommunicated civs should rather be kicked off the Apostolic Palace stuff for that religion, for a number of turns or forever.

 

[Sureshot]

i think a civ with a state religion should be able to move the Holy City to one of their cities with a Great Prophet if that civ who has the Holy City of that religion currently doesn't have that religion as their State religion. helps prevent people from hoarding holy cities.

also, i think religious heroes need a better system for abandonment (for one they should be able to join another civ, not just die), but im hoping that with BtS the entire hero system is redone to be more similar to the one in Age of Ice.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, I said no state religion mostly because I didn't want Religious heroes to stick with civs that aren't really following their faith. Religious Hero abandonment needs fixing more. Other than that I would be fine with the normal unhappiness effect from refusing a resolution. However, when England was excommunicated it did cease to have catholicism as a state religion, creating the Anglican church in its stead.

Any opinions on the rest of the post?

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

The patraiarch calling meeting would be interesting, but could the AI handle it? There would have to be minimum and maximum amount of turns. The player could hold the patriarch but not the leadership of the AP could simply not call meetings, so he could only call emergency ones, whille others come in regular intervals anyway. Outlawing mana types sounds interesting. However I disagree with moving holy cities. No holy city has truly moved in human history. Jerusalem, even after being inhabited by to other religous nations, is still the holy city for christianity. I agree excommunionation should cause the player to be forbidden from voting for the religion. I would like the two coexisting, but cloesly related.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I was probably least closely attached to the idea of moving holy cities, but it was something I had seen a few other people suggest on other threads a while back. I was really thinking more along the lines of getting a new holy city if the original one is razed to the ground.

If the votes still come up on their own and can be forced I think the rate should probably decreased. I would probably be more worried about making multiple APs and the new resolutions work than about programming the AI to Convene a holy council. It could probably be tied to the AI for diplomacy, so that if their request to declare war on someone, stop a war, get open boarders, or stop trading with someone get rejected, they would force an AP vote so that they can use their religion as a pretext get their way. It would probably be more difficult for the AI to use the AP to ban the magical sphere that would weaken its opponents the most, so it is probably best to make certain religions give the option to ban the mana types they might find most distasteful (e.g., the Order would want to ban Chaos, death, and entropy, Leaves might want to ban Fire) and/or those directly opposed the the resident's palace mana.

Perhaps the xp cost should be adjusted based on how often the ability has been used and how recently a vote has occurred. The AI would be less likely to use the ability if it cost more xp (and obviously unable if it cost more than the unit has)

 

[Polycrates]

I was thinking that having two apostolic-palace-like buildings - one each for the Order and the Veil - could be cool. Could kinda be used to help compel civs to take a side in big apocalyptic battles of good and evil (if it should come to that), and wean everyone off the big Runes love-in. The mechanics would have to be different, of course, but it could be fun. Just a thought.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

That would kind of suck if you wanted to be OO RoK or FoL. It would unbalance the religions too much. Imagine not being able to have a chance to build a wonder. It would be to unbalanced.

 

[kenken244]

there already are religion specific wonders for evenything but order and veil so i think it owuld make them more balenced

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I was thinking it might be better if there were 3 versions, 1 for each alignment. The neutral one could perhaps be a little weaker or have less militant options. Perhaps it could ask for peace but not for war.

(I would also think that the Order needs a religion specific wonder, but AV already has one, The Infernal Grimorie. I wouldn't mind if there were multiple religious wonders per religion.)

 

[TeraHammer]

I was thinking it might be better if there were 3 versions, 1 for each alignment. The neutral one could perhaps be a little weaker or have less militant options. Perhaps it could ask for peace but not for war.

Yes! I just was about to suggest the same. An AP not for religions, but for good, neutral and evil!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, I was still thinking of it as being for the religions (as far as the bonuses it grants for religious building, voting requirements, etc. These would be pretty hard to make alignment dependent, and I prefer them as they are) but though that splitting it up between alignments would make for more interesting gameplay. It would also allow for religious Schisms.