The Battle of Agincourt

[sp1023]

Ok, so well, I go to the same school as carmen510 does, but I already chose my topic as the battle of agincourt. However, most of my resources/bibliographies are just vague books with about a chapter in them about the battle. Does anyone know any good sources I would be able to use for my term paper?

Another thing is that the Battle of Agincourt is extremely important in terms of history, considering that it brought out teh power of the Welsh Longbow. There should be considerably more that should be more important, though, and I would like to know what else was so important to the world about the Battle of Agincourt.

Purpose of this thread:

a) Any specific books that I can use, relevant, and helpful.
b) What other things about the battle were important.
c) come up with an intriguing theme for it/title.
d) Etc.

 

[sydhe]

John Keegan's The Face of Battle includes the Battle of Agincourt as one of the three battles he analyzes in depth.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Henry V.

 

[Plotinus]

Same thing I said to carmen510: look it up on Copac.

 

[lovett]

Another thing is that the Battle of Agincourt is extremely important in terms of history, considering that it brought out teh power of the Welsh Longbow. There should be considerably more that should be more important, though, and I would like to know what else was so important to the world about the Battle of Agincourt.

Actually this is something of a misconception. Crecy and Poitiers were the battles that established the power of the Longbow. Specifically Crecy. The bodkin arrows cut clean through rather poor plate armour and completely massacred the unarmoured horses. This was at a stage where plater armour had not even begun to consider the strength of a longbow. The French army may as well have been naked.

The same thing happened again at Poitiers a decade later. This time the French King was captured for ransom. However in just ten years plate armour had advanced to such a point that killing shots were hardly a given. Curved surfaces and ingenious design meant arrows often skidded off and wasted their force in the mud. Unfortunately, the horses remained manifestly vulnerable.

By Agincourt plate armour had had over six decades to react to the threat of the longbow. It had evolved in such a way as to make killing it's occupant all but impossible. Contrary to popular perception the French did not die under a storm of arrows, they died in a good 'ole melee . It was the mud, not the archers, that destroyed the French army. They had to advance in a thin valley consisting of sodden ploughed land. Made worse by the fact that the winter ploughing was always deeper then the summer ploughing. If you've ever been to a festival you'll know what thousands of people moving across the same piece of mud will do to it. Imagine if they all have 50-60 pounds of army on, are crushed close together by the people behind and can barely see thanks to their visors. Basically, the land stops being solid. One can expect at least a good foot of mud. Imagine walking through that encumbered with 60 pounds of metal. Your not going to be in any fighting state at the end. Here the archers may have been useful. An arrow hits with one hell of a thud even if it doesn't kill you. Knights knocked down may have drowned in their armour. Others broke the cohesiveness of the line. Cavalry sent fleeing by the archers also shattered the military order of the advancing French. All this meant that when the French Men-At-Arms reached the English line they were exhausted, broken and half-blind. They were in no fit state for anything much, let alone a fight to the death (or capture).

Nevertheless, Agincourt didn't change much of anything. Henry V continued his retreat and King Charles remained King. It shocked Europe because of the sheer scale of French defeat (especially the capture of nobles) but that's about it. I'd strongly recommend doing Crécy rather then Agincourt. It defined Anglo-French relations for a hundred years.

 

[Antilogic]

You could say Agincourt was one of the most decisively-won unimportant battles of the Hundred Years' War.

 

[GoodGame]

You could say Agincourt was one of the most decisively-won unimportant battles of the Hundred Years' War.

Had to have been great for English morale, and one more validation of the cultural emphasis placed on the longbow.

 

[sp1023]

Im pretty sure I cant change it at this point, and one of my classmates is already doing Crecy, maybe I could go for Poiters?

 

[lovett]

That could work. After all the King of France was captured and ransomed. France was economically devastated. Moreover, if the English has lost it's not absurd to imagine that the 'hundred year war' would end there and then.

But if you can change to 1429 and Joan of Arc lifting the siege of Orleans I'd strongly recommend that. It was the beginning of the end for English claims to the French throne. By throwing the English out of Europe and seizing their continental possessions France turned England into an island nation. An Island nation which felt isolated and detached from the rest of Europe (reference the Reformation and 'splendid isolation') and was forced to build a navy that ruled the waves and one quarter of the world..

Conversely, French victory allowed the proper centralisation of the French state and the entrenchment of a national culture. It allowed France to recuperate and express her true power whilst enthusing her martial land forces. A process which would culminate in French domination of the continent.

 

[Dachs]

But if you can change to 1429 and Joan of Arc lifting the siege of Orleans I'd strongly recommend that. It was the beginning of the end for English claims to the French throne. By throwing the English out of Europe and seizing their continental possessions France turned England into an island nation. An Island nation which felt isolated and detached from the rest of Europe (reference the Reformation and 'splendid isolation') and was forced to build a navy that ruled the waves and one quarter of the world..

Conversely, French victory allowed the proper centralisation of the French state and the entrenchment of a national culture. It allowed France to recuperate and express her true power whilst enthusing her martial land forces. A process which would culminate in French domination of the continent.

Already being done, chief.

 

[lovett]

Oh. This makes me sad.

 

[sp1023]

Ok, so. My global teacher has agreed to give me the option of reselecting my term paper topic, should I keep it as Agincourt or change it to The Battle of Poitiers?

 

[Plotinus]

He's given you the option - so you choose what you want to do! If you're not sure then research the topics more. You can't ask other people to tell you what to do.

 

[Sharwood]

He's given you the option - so you choose what you want to do! If you're not sure then research the topics more. You can't ask other people to tell you what to do.

What if he plans on joining the army?

 

[Steph]

You can still keep Agincourt, but use the opportunity to explain how it is different from Crécy in term of historical importance (Welsh longbow).

Kind of "people often think that Agincourt is very important, because of that and that, but I will demonstrate the impact wasn't so big"

Perhaps if you present it as a well thought criticism of "common knowledge" you could get some extra points, for your capacity to analyse events with a more critical eye, and not just repeat something.

 

[FriendlyFire]

By Agincourt plate armour had had over six decades to react to the threat of the longbow. It had evolved in such a way as to make killing it's occupant all but impossible.

1-2mm of steel plate couldnt be penetrated by cast iron bobkin arrows. Though 25Kilos of armour once dismounted would mean almost impossible to get up in the deep mud.

It was ultimately the French disorganisation which cost them the battle. Having the crossbow men screening the men at arms to draw fire would have likely worked. Had the infantry not moved over the crossbowmen disrupting them. Had the French knights not bum rushed, had not funnelled due to the slopp of the land made worse by the mud and run into concentrated arrow fire.

 

[Princeps]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib8kGCFpJRo&feature=related