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The Black Tower

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Official Scenarios' started by Kael, Dec 20, 2008.

  1. Ur_Vile_Wedge

    Ur_Vile_Wedge Chieftain

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    Foulfoot, I'm just wondering. How did Tebryn get 65 Crossbowmen? I was under the impression they were a national unit?
     
  2. FoulFoot

    FoulFoot Chieftain

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    I'm not sure if they are a national unit anymore or not (I think I built four of them myself, but I can't remember if I could build more). Regardless, Tebryn had 65 Crossbowmen, in one city.

    Foul
     
  3. kenken244

    kenken244 Grammar Nazi

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    Whenever living units die they come back as a demonic unit. Those crossbowmen came back from living units dying.
     
  4. Ur_Vile_Wedge

    Ur_Vile_Wedge Chieftain

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    Actually, I've come to report a problem with the scenario, specifically around crossbowmen.

    I am posting the save of my current game. If you'll notice, two spaces to the left of my SoD, Tebryn has a pair of crossbowmen, and a few to the right he has another one. You'll have to take my word for it( I didn't save at the start of the turn) but magnadine was just over playing with them, and slaughtered two more crossbownmen. That makes 5. Now, I know people have siad that the computer gets my dead as demonic units, but glance at my tech tree. I don't have machinery yet, and cannot build crossbowmen. While I've had a few regular archers get offed, he shouldn't be able to get above 4 at one time. Something is screwy here. (I might take a peek with worldbuilder to see if Tebryn has any more)


    Edit- Yep, take a peek with the WB. Tebryn's hellish turf is *crawling* with crossbowmen. Waaaaaaaay more than 4. What gives?
     

    Attached Files:

  5. cyther

    cyther Lord of the Dance

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    When a living unit that is both tier 4 and Archery class dies, Tebryn gets a demonic crossbowman.
     
  6. psychoak

    psychoak Chieftain

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    I'm invincible...

    I have half a dozen units with 300+ experience. One crossbowman with fire arrows, defending on a hill city, has killed 100+ enemy units since it last took damage. I'm not even sure I really need the prior sitting there to heal them. Even the other crossbow has only gotten to engage a couple units over the past twenty turns. Twenty turns of 50+ units attacking each time, nearly all crossbowmen themselves.

    The mass crossbow assaults are really killing the AI off, it literally can't deal damage, let alone casualties. I'm running out of promotions. I've got three thousand experience on my killer stack between the heroes, paladins, knights, two remaining priors(one is seeing zero activity on the starting island) and archmages. My phalanx haven't gotten to attack yet, the cities die to my blitz, C5, 5 and 6 speed cavalry units. I don't even need to zap them anymore, 99.9% combat odds against undamaged crossbows defending their cities. I can kill 30 units a round just with the six cavalry units, and defense is absolute. The assassins don't even get any kills.

    The difficulties this scenario presents are themselves a destructive force on the fun factor. It was awesome the first time I set food on the mainland for more than a couple turns at a time, and got bushwhacked by a massive army. I'm up over a thousand kills now though, it's repetitive.

    The free crossbowmen have made my units godlike titans, the healing penalty meant I had to wait quite a while before I could do sustained combat operations with important units without going OO and violating my own principles regarding character. I've gotten my ass kicked once, I sent a group of boarding parties up into the mainland because it was too much effort to run another army around the island to get a satellite the last of the tripod had put up there. My main attack force is flat invincible. I'm not even getting to use Mokka's cauldron, the city I stole to get mithril access came with it, I got one whole Eidolon.

    It's taking forever, like 15 hours forever. It's not fun anymore, it's not even amusing at this point. The poor AI just just throwing hordes of national units at me without doing damage. I'm writing this post during AI movements... The ching of bounty income is going off in the background. If it wouldn't be too tedious to build a massive army up and wipe them out all at once, I could save myself another couple hours by abandoning the place and letting them just sit there for a while as I built.

    The turn is still going...
     
  7. ZeroZeroSix

    ZeroZeroSix Chieftain

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    If you are right then something is not working right since all I see are non demonic crossbowman that he got when I killed non demonic crossbowman...look like an infernal pyramida to me lol...
     
  8. nihonjeff

    nihonjeff Chieftain

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    Psychoak -- sounds like you waited too long to take the fight to them. I had a similar experience in my first play-through, and restarted the game awhile later with a new strategy. Beeline Divination & Sorcery for Life II mages, and invest heavily in Luchuirp cities. As soon as you've got a few golems and a small stack of Destroy Undead, Maelstrom, and Repair mages, send them out on the attack. If you give Tebryn and his lackeys a chance to tech past Pyre Zombies and Diseased Corpses, you're likely in for a long, arduous slog.
     
  9. psychoak

    psychoak Chieftain

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    It isn't long and arduous, it's only tedius. I go and do something else while the ai sends it's waves of troops. I'm not taking casualties. My knights are 5 move, max combat, drill, blitz, fire resistant... I can kill 31 units a turn with my four knights and the two cavalry heroes. I took out Abashi with Magnadine at 99.9% odds, then took out five more guys with him that same round. The sheaim capital was the hardest nut to crack so far, it took two rounds from my six cavalry. The one crossbowman I have defending the first settlement on the mainland just ran out of promotions, the joys of having over a thousand xp.

    The problem is they have massive power, and it's all defensive. Crossbows aren't going to kill me, not even when there are fifty of them attacking one city in one turn. Also, Luchuirp cities is practically cheating, they aren't available without completing the other scenario.

    Edit: I finished! 19 hours and 50 minutes. Ignoring everything under three digits, my kills: 400 arquebus, 240 assassins, 102 axemen, 283 pyre zombies, 230 champions, 355 crossbowmen... 252 diseased corpses, 365 manes. I lost under 100, even including the workers I was capturing and leaving where they landed.
     
  10. nihonjeff

    nihonjeff Chieftain

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    Sorry, I must have missed your point. I thought you were arguing that the scenario is boring/tedius due to a design flaw. Hence my response that there are different strategies other than just massing the most awesomely invincitastically, most super-duperist army ever (ever, I say!) and bashing heads against Tebryn for 19 hours and 50 minutes. Apparently I misunderstood.

    Wait, what?
     
  11. psychoak

    psychoak Chieftain

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    You don't have access to Luchuirp cities without getting them as allies, they aren't a foregone conclusion. I had access to three sides, my own, Hippus, and Bannor for dropping the port city in time. If you need Luchuirp for the scenario to be reasonable, it's a poorly designed scenario.

    Your wonderful sarcasm at the invincibility of my army is misplaced. It's not my fault that a single crossbowman with the first two city defender promos can kill 20 units a round. Normally, a single crossbowman is simply a nice unit, not an impermeable defense.

    Once they reach arquebus, they screw themselves into the ground. They build almost all arquebus, all the arquebus turn into crossbowmen when they die, and you have a massive spam of good defenders that can't deal with first strike because their attack strength sucks monkey nuts. If the AI was sending eidolons and knights at me, I'd have actually had something to do besides click promotions for the last eight hours.

    Even mithril champions would have been twice as good at the task, at least champions can get city attacker promos. Unfortunately, as soon as I started attacking, there was a massive sucking sound as all their research went into a black hole so they could pay the upkeep on the massive numbers of units there were getting off each other. They never got even got mithril.
     
  12. nihonjeff

    nihonjeff Chieftain

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    Psychoak -- I don't mean to get into a flamewar (and, yeah, I did lay the snark on a bit thick in my earlier message, for which I apologize), but I fear I still may not be understanding what you're getting at. As I understood, you were either, A) arguing that the scenario is poorly designed because it inevitably devolves into a tedious slog where the player must generate a ridiculously powerful and experienced army and battle through thousands of enemy defenders, or B) you wanted to tell everyone how awesome your army was. Hence my suggestion that there are other ways to win the scenario (even without the Luchuirp, the Destroy Undead rush is a pretty powerful and efficient way to school the Sheaim in this scenario as long as you can get it rolling early enough).

    My point is that any game on any larger map can easily turn into the type of scenario you present in your post -- I fail to see how a high-production-capacity AI sending hordes of ineffective units against your experienced defenders is a problem unique to this scenario, as you seemed to be proposing ("The difficulties this scenario presents are themselves a destructive force on the fun factor"). I made the assumption (apparently incorrectly) that you might be looking for an alternate strategy that might change your experience the second time you play, and tried to provide one. I guess I was wrong.

    My apologies for misinterpreting your meaning.
     
  13. psychoak

    psychoak Chieftain

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    I wasn't aware it was that complex...

    There is a common flaw with the AI choice regarding unit selection. Once it hits gunpowder, it goes crazy building arquebus. They're a decent city defender, and they have their uses on offense as well, but they are not that good a unit for taking cities. They haven't the raw strength of the T4 units, and don't have access to the very important city attacker line.

    Basically, they suck at taking cities unless you're not negating the defense values before you attack. When it's already zero'd out, champions are vastly superior for the job.

    This scenario compounds that rather irritating problem by then turning each and every arquebus you kill, into a crossbowman. Crossbowmen being even worse a pick for attacking a city. The massive spam of weak attackers slaughtering themselves against my units just gives them insane experience. Bragging doesn't factor in, the AI owns itself in a monumentally boring manner.
     
  14. nihonjeff

    nihonjeff Chieftain

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    A fair point, and clearly explained. Now that we're on the same page, I agree with you, and understand how the conditions of this scenario magnify an existing AI problem.

    Glad we could get that sorted!
     
  15. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Played with patch w and I got stomped by Tebryn and his lackeys! All I can do was sweating (and swearing) while defending my cities. The life mages are useless, no wood golem able to attack crossbowmen, even my Barnaxus, Gilden and Donal are almost useless. Maybe I took too long but well, many demonic crossbowmen are more than scary SoD... I hate Tebryn very much now...

    Gotta start it from the beginning... :(
     
  16. Ur_Vile_Wedge

    Ur_Vile_Wedge Chieftain

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    Finally beat this annoying (insert expletive of choice)

    I seem to have played a similar strategy to Psychoak, with the "build up until you have the SoD of SoDs, and then annihilate everything in your path". A lot of the same slogging through, but this time I avoided my last mess up and didn't leave Gosea with a city trapped in Tebryn's culture bubble. (I still think something should be done about that. In some ways, it makes more sense that if a "lieutenant" gets too battered, that Tebryn absorb their remaining cities and units. Helps puff up the big baddy at the end.

    Due to my compulsive need to take cities as opposed to razing them, I wound up with a massive, massive border force, to protect the perimeter. Was somewhat pleased to see that the AI was smart enough to attack at different points along the border, although not so much to see the same thing that Psychaok did, namely, colossal stacks of Arquebuses marching to their death, followed 5 turns or so later by those same guys back as demonic crossbowmen. (They get to raise their own dead too!? Totally unfair!)

    I will admit though, the turn after I knocked out Malchavic was one of the most satisfying I'd ever seen. Tebryn is surrounded, and I have huge armies placed in every border city to prevent his demonic hordes from breaking out while his sanctuary was holding. I was having Donal Lugh popping in and out of combat and back to one of my home cities, which had a population of 24 when I was doing most of my recruitment drive, and a temple of order. That's 16 units recruited for each demon killed, which I was achieving essentially every other turn. Granted, they're weaklings, but they're still bodies...... Anyway, when the barrier fell, I essentially had 5 armies, any one of which would have given Tebryn a hard time on its own. And I am not counting with that group either Sphener or Magnadine, who had both achieved insanely high numbers of promotions and were essentially invincible. (I had literally bought every possible promotion with Magnadine.) Abashai ate a few of my guys, but that was only because I was feeding him weaklings so my beastmasters could take him down. Then I found out he's still held when you capture him. Laa-ame.

    But that first turn, when suddenly that inviolable bubble that Tebryn had all game being violently burst from every direction possible.... You don't often get to do an envelopment of a civ with 20ish cities and attack along every front. It made all the hassle and irritation and grime of the scenario, the three defeats, wonderful.

    It's on to Mulcarn reborn for me. Great work Kael!
     
  17. jprc

    jprc My dog is smarter than me

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    Unfortunately, I have not finished yet this scenario (monarch, epic), and I refrain from reading other messages as I do not want to read spoilers... (There are many spoilers, but almost never mentionned as **** spoilers *** . pity...)

    - I would love to play the Losj/Svart/Lech ... but the choice is greyed out. Only Bannor/Hippus/Lanum. I have no idea why.

    - It seems that Luchuirp should offer something in a scenario? In the one with Perpentach, he got wiped out right after the 1st war (and not by me...). Before dying, he should be offered a chance to make his "offer", whatever it is...

    - It is not clear what is the impact of the choice in the Radiant Guard when you kill the 100. If you choose to attack Basium, do you have Loj/Svar/Luch enabled?

    - heroes should heal. perhaps at a slow rate (ex.: always at the rate as if they were in enemy territory, with no bonus possible from priests and other promotions, and "march" not working either)

    - missing some krakens for not having the sea looking likea Lanum's private Highway
     
  18. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    Spoiler :
    To play as Ljos/Svart, finish Splintered Court as one of them. The civ you play (and win) at this scenario will help you at Black Tower


    Spoiler :
    Beeri will give you the choice to overthrow Perp when only you, Beeri and Perp are left. If you want to play Luch badly, just restart the Momus and keep doing that until you got the event :D


    Spoiler :
    AFAIK, no. If you betray Basium, Hyborem will be on your side in the Black Tower.
     
  19. jprc

    jprc My dog is smarter than me

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    Thank you ESVATH for the detailed answers! (and thank you for the option to hide them as spoilers... well done...)

    play the Losj/Svart/Lech ... but the choice is greyed out : finish Splintered Court
    ??? I do not understand the sequence.
    I play following the story line, unlocking scenarii in the ascending order, which is
    Grand Menagerie
    The Mornus
    The Radiant Guard
    Black Tower​
    Nothing in the story line gives a clue about this non-logical sequence as "Splintered Court" is way down in the list, and the description text does not mention anything about its interaction with an other scenario... Confusing ...

    I wonder if it is intended by the FFH team: it seems to me as if the full scenarii setup/links are still in the process to be improved. There is already a tremendous job done (art, storyline, ideas), and it can become a full Campaign! With time, I think the scenarii will get more and more flesh and turn all interactives!

    ... it would be also so nice to have some units you managed to create/rescue in a scenario be made available into the next one. If you are an horrible murderer and sent most of your troops to death for getting a "quick and dirty" win, the poor strategy would then be lethal in the next scenario as you would do it with less "reinforcements".
    This could work by unlocking some units. Ex.: if in a scenario you have not created this type of unit, it is NOT available to you in the next one! A positive - or negative - cascade ...
     
  20. Gigaz

    Gigaz civoholic

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    What is required to play Bannor in this scenario? They are greyed out for me :(
     

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