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The Bureau of Land Grants

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game IV: RPG' started by Cyc, Jun 1, 2008.

  1. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Civplayah, I hope you're still around. I was going to start your thread last night, but part of Diamondeye's demand was that you receive stewardship of tile Number 89. You personally requested tile Number 26. And I got no response from you either way. Please scan back through these threads to find Diamondeye's demand and then post me again. Tell me what tile you want to take. Maybe you should confer with Diamondeye.
     
  2. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    As I look back through my records and the postings of the prior King, I am unable to find the reason you were considered a "Favoured" citizen of Arete.
    I guess someone slipped me some gold under the table. :joke:

    You just 'got in'. My mistake. But your quiting the APR and starting your own faction immediately after I granted you a tile, pretty much sealed the deal, as far as you being part of the public population. Your "favored" status has been revoked by the ALG and that's the final word on that.
     
  3. civplayah

    civplayah phantasm

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    I have no idea what he was implying there. As far as I know, stewardships are part of the PoF and don't have anything to do with the Bureau of Land Grants, although Diamondeye took his. If I had to personally pick, I would take tile Number 26, but not if I have to abandon my stewardship. I yield to Diamondeye to clarify.
     
  4. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    If you need more definate proof than this, I might have to dig deeper in my inbox.
     
  5. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    :nope: Why would you present me with an email that has my name on it? I have that pm in my inbox, also. And in the initial excercise of determining that this situation needed to be looked into and worked on, kwp's words were very informative. But we're beyond that now. I'm looking for proof of the original discussion. Links to a forum discussion, that sort of thing. Was this thing done covertly, under the table from step one to it's conclusion? That's no way to run a forum-based Kingdom. Please, in your digging, don't bring back anything that you know I already have. :shake:

    But let's look at what you did bring back.

    pseudo - (often used in combination) not genuine but having the
    appearance of; "a pseudo esthete"; "pseudoclassic

    autonomous - of persons; free from external control and
    constraint in e.g. action and judgment
    _______________________________________________

    So it is agreed that the POF is to appear to be free from external control of the New Giruvegan BFC, but not really have any teeth.

    Well, if that's all you're bringing, then this will be a shorter negotiation than I thought. The ALG has been given the teeth. And I will make a judgement in this land dispute that benefits our nation as a whole. And this judgement will be based on information given, not something someone wanted to happen but never bothered to document.

    If you would like to continue with these negotiations, please post after reading this. Otherwise, I will formulate my opinion and post it.

    Thank you,

    Cyc
    Master of the Tribunal
     
  6. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Ok, a reasonable amount of time has passed since my last posting. I will drum up an official ruling today and post tonight. Thank you for your help.

    Cyc
    Master of the Tribunal
     
  7. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Sorry, I've had exampreperations and some personal problems these last couple of days, I'll look into this in more detail now:

    Best thing I could find in my CFC inbox, more than a month back:
    I agree that there is no direct, deadfact statement saying Your faction will have full control of New Giruvegan and the land around it, but this was the closest I could get to it. It clearly underlines that we are charged with religious affairs and that New Giruvegan would be the center of this focus. If this is not clear enough, I would like to point out the idea of the factions leading cities such as it was proposed during the Triad, and which, as far as I recall, persisted in the new election, that those who had land would keep it. At that time, New Giruvegan was founded and under control of the Protectors, as planned. If you necro the POF thread you will find that Aluminumknight picks out the three tiles I mentioned (Copper, Gold and Ivory(?)), as under charge by me, him and Civplayah.

    If I should somehow remember wrong on all these things and King Dutchfire and Voice Seidrik judges my arguments to have too "dent" teeth, I would like to draw attention to the second part of the letter I quoted. If my faction is not returned to full control over New Giruvegan, I am afraid that I will have to officially de-merge my faction from the APR. I am sure Aelbeorht would support this move. I am a bit uncertain when it comes to Civplayah, but he will have to decide this for himself.

    I think, on a side-note, that you should have Seidrik officially accept or denounce my request, since he was the one I negotiated with on this pact, and I frankly don't like the tone from Cyc. I have not yet had the pleasure of hearing the Second king Dutchfire air his opinion in here, and I frankly weight Seidriks words higher in this case.

    @Seidrik: I judge this a good cause for leaving (if the issue is not corrected) and hope you will have no ill will against me or my faction if we are forced into leaving the Regime.
     
  8. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

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    Well thats where the problem is because there is no offical statement of this, therefore you have no more right to the lands around NG than anyone else when the faction was elected

    There was talk about it but again no offical statement.

    Why, kwp has no offical right over this now (no offence :)) it is up to Cyc as he has been given the power to do so. If not him then dutchfire is next in charge. If kwp could provide evidence that would be great, but it can't be his ruling.



    .
     
  9. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I see both sides of this dispute as problematic. While I understand the attraction of role playing a hard line stance both as a faction leader on one side and as an official appointed over an area on the other, it is important to keep it in perspective of how it affects the overall population. There is also nothing wrong with the two officials cooperating to both achieve their desired goals.

    As for the tiles themselves, I think that disputes between individuals should be handled as individuals. In theory, we have some tiles where multiple people have what they think is a valid grant for the land. What specific tiles are in dispute, and who and where are the disputing owners for each tile? Let the individuals speak for themselves! If one of the grantees fails to argue for the validity of his grant after a reasonable time period (3-4 days I'd say), then there is little choice but to assume that the other one prevails.

    Alternatively, both grants could be considered valid until such point that an actual conflict develops. The two "owners" could each have a thread where they post stories about the same land. Let them develop the RP into either a cooperative venture or a blood feud. Either one would help the game, I think.

    Since we have decided not to include a judiciary outside the factions, if it comes to an individual struggle over the tiles then the dispute resolution process within the faction's government must be used. For the term of a Prime Faction, all must follow the PF's rules whether as members of that faction or coalition, or not.
     
  10. civplayah

    civplayah phantasm

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    If we don't have control over New Giruvegan and the BFC, all we have is religious affairs, which- estimated- makes up about a 10% importance in the complicated game of Civilization4. 10% is not enough to really matter, so if we have- and only have- that much, we shouldn't de-merge, we MUST de-merge. I'm Voice of Faith, so it's my duty to make this clear. This is exactly like the Triad, the PoF is getting pushed around, despite agreements. We need a constitution if we want this coalition to work out.
     
  11. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    :eek::wow::eek::faint:
    What??!! First thing, I reallocated our most valuable tile to you, I have worked with civplayah in your absence, I have waited all weekend for some kind of response, I have tried to be calm and polite even though I have only gotten a small amount of assisance from you in resolving this matter (and I don't call arguing with joe harker any help).

    I do have a job to do, you know. I'm Master of the Tribunal. Or is head of our local religious fanatic faction the only job that counts around here? See, ya had to go piss me off. And I was being nice.

    Have you bothered to read the Arkadia/Proectors Debate thread? Some sort of reply from you would be nice AND informative. But no, we get nothing but demands and threats. This is coming from a religious leader.

    Answer me this, Diamondeye. Is the precious gold on you tile going to be offered freely to the Monarchy in return for keeping the tile? How about the other resources? Do you plan on playing nice with the King's tiles, or do I need to do an administrative action to preclude any mounting resentment and possible military action? It's not all about you and your religion. There are other people that need to exist in this world also.
     
  12. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    I haven't been hard line over this issue. I have been open and trying to help. I do have a job to do and this game HAS to move on (religion is holding it up now). I have been courteous with little response. Twice now I made posts with obvious attempts (maybe 3 times) at getting Diamondeye to start some kind of negotiation. All he says is he doesn't like my attitude. :sheesh:

    I am not sure this will work. Both sides of the table have already posted and I believe this path has been played out. Or are you looking for a donsigish-like stand-off? ;)

    I like this idea, personally. But we still need something other than demands and threats from Diamondeye (and now civplayah). We could get the ball rolling with this concept, but in my opinion, without initial negotiations and guidelines, this thing would turn ugly and turn into a police action, maybe war.

    Thank you for your support on this matter.
     
  13. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Now see. This is the kind of info I'm looking for. Relion is 10%, fine. No hassle there. What other percentages are you wanting? You already have he New Giruvegan Gameplay thread. What percentage does that bring you? That's currently another 16.666%, is it not? One sixth of our cities? Right there is over 26% control of a game by a minor faction allied to the PF before the election. Now you want all the gold, all the ivory and elephants, and all the copper. And you deserve all this because why? You want to control the entire game? Is that what I heard?

    Think about what you're saying people. Compromise is not always a bad thing.
     
  14. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Okay, another dissection of comments.

    I counted on this as a promise between the lines in talking with kwp. This is why I want him to officially denounce or accept my statement. I frankly can't use your word for what Seidrik said for nothing.

    I think it can, since he is the one I made the deal with. I frankly was disappointed when he abdicated, mostly because he is one of the few friends outside POF I have, and since it was he I made the agreement with, I think his words have immense value here.

    Coorporation is preferred yes, but not if the compromise is "agree to what I say or buzz off", which I feel is the case here. It is, or is close to, "Agree that your lands are not yours or we take em." I value the work Cyc did to get us one of the tiles back, but that is not of enough importance. The compromise is still vague-like, and not anywhere near in the favor of the POF.

    Okay, we can do that if it sounds like the best idea. I can't guarantee I can keep polite when arguing as the previous steward of an area against someone moving in with a little nice letter from the King saying: "Hey, this area is mine now, get moving." But I can try.

    Roleplaywise, perhaps. But it would split the APR. Because, frankly, I am rather sure atleast my arguments would move into the phase you call "blood feud" rather fast. Which is not a great idea considering I am dealing with players such as Vandal Warlord and Dutchfire, the leaders of 2 other factions.

    Dead-hard fact. I like that. We must follow the PF rules. Okay. I want Seidrik, the man I helped form the PF to smack me in the face with "You do not have control of NGs tiles", then I'll react to that.

    :agree: Well spoken, Voice.

    1) Sorry, the tile was nice work.
    2) My absence has nothing to do with this. If this debate is about exams and personal problems, I have nothing to do here.
    3) I proved what assistance I could at the time. I promise to be more active these next days.

    And I am the Head of Faith, leader of the POF. It is my job to make sure that we get what we deserve.

    Okay, calm down, no flaming. I stated as politely as possible that I wanted a comment from Seidrik because I formed the agreement with him and I trust him more than you, especially because you seem to downtalk a member of your own faction (APR). I am being as nice as is needed/possible when your faction stands at shot.

    Yes I have. I will do it again. And judge whether a reply is neccessary.

    I am replying the best I can while preparing for my math exam. If that is too rough and uninformative for you, find someone else to negotiate instead of going sour.

    Is this of importance? Please see the spoiler for my views on religion.
    Spoiler :
    I am, personally, IRL, a Nihilist. That is Atheist - Faith. That is not religious. What I am doing here is roleplaying a religious leader. Tell me if I do bad, because frankly, I quite like trying it. If it doesn't work out, I can make him commit suicide in depression and play along as Sindar. Not that I would like it, but if everyone judges one because of the role one plays, I chose badly.

    That said, religion is not purely negative (crusades, inquisitions, Jihad, fanaticism), but has a huge positive effect. It acts as a way to unify people and keep them under control. And has proven effective at this for a millenium or more.


    Well yes, if any city in the empire needs the gold for the construction of fabulous monuments to the gods, or the crown of a new king, or the beautification of a new regiments banners or shields, New Giruvegan would gladly support the needed amounts of gold. As soon as we have been able to mine it, when you remove the murderish vandal living there atm (no offense VW, just referring to the personality of your char ;)).

    Ofcourse the other resources will be available to the empire for use in equipment of military units. It is not as if I want to take over the empire just because our Copper and Ivory is within my reach. I want what's best for our people, which is not civil war, and what is best for the Faithful, which is areas where they can work in their own tempo without finish lords in small cottages to overlook them. Places where they can work, sleep, pray, meditate, in peace.

    :eek:O RLY?
    :sarcasm:

    True. But we are not fully in control with New Giruvegan, as seen from the last turnchats. Stables? Why does NG need a Stables, for gods (plural) sake? It is like the King decides exactly what is build and when, with some minor suggestions from us. It should be the other way around. The POF should be in control with the queue in NG, provided with suggestions from the King (ie: "We need more military", or "Our empire needs workers", or "Building the Swedagon Paya in NG would be a good idea").

    That is 17% of the cities, yes. But not 17% of everything. If religion is 10% of everything, and the cities are the rest, a city is 15%. Add to that military and techs, and a city might be 5-10%. That's... 15-20% for us right there.

    Well, as stated above, not 26%. But yes, an allied faction to the PF deserves somewhere around that. So control with the tiles around NG and control of the city itself would perhaps amount in 20-25%. Extremely fair.
    Spoiler How I got it to 20-25% :
    Religion is ~10%. Techs is ~25%. Units not attached to a city is ~15%. Then each city, with units attached and all tiles in BFC is 10. One city + religion amounts to 20%, then.


    One of each, that is, in another way of speaking.

    You judge that I intend to control the whole game based on a wish to keep in control of one city orignially designated my faction? :eek:
    Frankly, we (POF) deserve that because of our assistance to the ruling faction as well as to the Triad ruling before that. If that is not worth control of one city, what is it worth then? A tile where we can go play? Control of a military unit? Blaargh.

    Never stated anything like that. But a compromise that conflicts with the wish of my faction is a bad thing for me. And taking our tiles and city is that.
     
  15. Joe Harker

    Joe Harker 1st in the Premiership!

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    His words and evidence would be of great value to the debate, but it isn't and can't be his call.



    Well what do you want, what compromise do you offer?

    This is what you laid down earlier

    Now if that is what you want coming out of this then that isn't compromising at all, in fact there is an extra demand in there as well.

    Then give some instructions, rather than telling us what we should have done after the turnchat


    I don't really want to numbers to it cause we could argue all day how much this is worth. But 15-20% as you have suggested is all right considering your active size






    No other Triad faction got it's old city why should you on the bases of the fact you once had a city.



    How about this Diamondeye,

    For now you keep all right to make the build queue for NG but lose the tiles that haven't been given to you by Cyc, once Madrid is captured, you gain control of it and it's BFC and cede NG back under control of the APR?
     
  16. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Hmmh. I would feel best if I had his word in this argument, but it seems I will have to do without.

    I'll take that below ->

    I presented numerous options of builds, which were then ignored. The last TC I was absent, so Civplayah took my role. That last turnset is not anything I can be accused of not taking action in. I made suggestions, officially announced that Civplayah was the one to ask to if one needed suggestions ideas beyond what I had posted. AFAIK, no heed was paid to either my suggestions and no message sent to ask Civplayah, although I have not confirmed this with him, I ar rather sure he would dislike the stable build had he been asked.

    :agree:

    Hmm. As I said, I was not sure here. I just vaguely remembered something about an election where all factions that rolled for PF included that the original cities were kept. But perhaps that was the election before HR.

    Finally, a suggestion with potential.
    My suggestion to a change:
    Before the overtake of Madrid:
    The POF faction is in charge of New Giruvegans building queue, citizen placement, etc. Furthermore, the faction remains in control of the tiles agreed upon with Cyc (Gold, atm, and negotiations are running about Ivory and Copper). The resources from these tiles are ofcourse accessible to the entire kingdom. Any tiles in New Giruvegans BFC that is not granted to another, named citizen, remains under POF control.

    After the overtake of Madrid:
    The POF is in control of Madrids build orders, citizen placement, etc., as well as all tiles in the BFC of Madrid. Tiles with resources are to be stewarded by a member of the POF. A member is allowed to govern multiple tiles this way, should this be necessary. The resources from these tiles are ofcourse accessible to the entire kingdom.

    The ruling King is in control of New Giruvegans build orders and citizens, but the POF faction has a "vizier"-like position in this, meaning that they can make suggestions such as "Work 2 citizens as priests" or "We need a cathedral". While the king is not forced to follow these suggestions in any way, it would please the POF should the king follow them, especially when there is no urgent need for special builds (ie: Troops, Workers, Settlers, buildings required for Cathedrals or NWs).

    The control of the tiles outside of New Giruvegan are distributed among the loyal citizens. The POF members still have the right to roleplay visits to the city and areas they have been in control of. If no citizen wishes for the tiles and they are not in use/under improvement, they can be used for roleplay by the POF members aswell (since these know the local population and terrain).


    Both before and after the overtake of Madrid:
    The POF faction is in control of religious matters in the empire, and the king must be crowned by the Head of Faith. The Head of Faith may not decline to do this should a majority vote for the new king be present, without either seperating the POF from the APR or surrender his position as Head Of Faith. In case of the latter, the new Head Of Faith faces the same choice.

    The POF members are considered part of the APR and is, as such, eligible to Land Grants, Leading a military unit, etc., should the king see this fit.


    This is a rough outline, but the idea is there. Can everyone agree on this or does it need further editing? I am especially interested in the opinions of:
    Cyc, Dutchfire, Kwarriorpoet, Civplayah, Aluminumknight, Joe Harker, BLCG1000 and Daveshack, although any opinions are welcome.
     
  17. civplayah

    civplayah phantasm

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    A minor Faction?!?! We are ALLIES! The AD is in power, and we are allied with them.
    In case you don't know, we should be treated as members of the AD, not as vassals or servants.


    And thanks to Diamondeye for the constitution.
     
  18. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Didn't mean to ruffle yer feathers, there my fine feathered allied friend. At the time said agreement was formulated, the Arkadian Dynasty
    was a minor faction as well. My point being that this agreement was made prior to the Monarchy gaining power. Therefore, you made a deal with a minor faction, not with the Monarchy. We were the same as you. Do not feel insulted. Just stating facts, no insult intended.
     
  19. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    [OOC]After a quick read, I like what I see. That is mainly unrestricted use of the resources. But I need to get back to work. I will post again this evening.
     
  20. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    @Diamondeye's proposal: Looks good to me. After Madrid's capture, would you prefer to control NG or Madrid?
     

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