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[GS] The Campus is still OP. And also boring.

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by acluewithout, Mar 6, 2019.

  1. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    The Campus is still just totally and completely OP.

    Science is really powerful and also so easy to get. You unlock Campuses really early; the Tier 1 and 1 buildings are easy to get and chop in; you can boost Campuses and Buildings really easily via Policy Cards and City States; and the Campuses and Buildings then just give you Great Scientists which just give your more and more science. Add in some Pingala action, and the blue beakers just flow and flow and flow.

    As a result, while there are other cunning ways to wring out science from the rest of your empire - trade, alliances, policy cards that aren’t Rationalism etc., Dedications, tiles, Specialists - , none of them really matter. Just build more campuses. And if you can’t, then run more projects.

    The game currently has a lot of issues around pacing and difficulty. But too easy science is a big part of that.

    Worse, all this easy science just makes the game boring.
     
    Sostratus and ezzlar like this.
  2. Chefofrats

    Chefofrats Chieftain

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    So don't build them? I really do not understand why you would rather have the game change for everyone (which I presume you are suggesting?) than just stop using a feature you think is overpowered yourself. I enjoy my high science output from campuses and I would probably stop playing if technological advancement were more of a chore. This reminds me of World of Warcraft and calls to remove or restrict flying mounts - some very vocal players thought they made the game too easy and affected immersion. Rather than just stop using them themselves, they actually influenced the developer Blizzard to restrict their use, thus making the game much more of a chore for those who enjoyed the convenience of personal, fast travel in the vast game world. Why would you want me to have less fun if you can play the game as you like already, simply by not using a feature which after all is optional?
     
    Infixo and Noble Zarkon like this.
  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Indeed, I don’t build them (or at least no more than 3). Limiting myself that way plus 8 Ages of Paces helps slow the game down.

    But if they are OP, if they are game breaking, wouldn’t it make sense to fix that?
     
  4. Chefofrats

    Chefofrats Chieftain

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    How are they gamebreaking? The AI can build them too and it can also get the great people that improve them further. Actually in GS I see the AI build more campuses and in better locations too.

    Your "argument" applies to any district by the way - is the Theatre Square gamebreaking because it provides a lot of culture and its great people help get even more, and tourism? That is simply how Civ VI works - districts provide the most utility.

    And I am sorry but I really resent your assumption that only your way of playing the game is the right way. You have your mod, you refrain from building too many campuses - you can play as you want. Why would you have me play your way too? Why does it matter to you how others play and what they enjoy?
     
    Lupine likes this.
  5. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    If the developers have a concept for how fast players will advance through the game, and other systems - production, units, pop growth, era score, etc- are built around that pacing, and campuses are letting players tech much faster than planned - then there is an issue. The game experience itself is better served by having properly paced play. Balance leads to choices and interesting decisions. It makes each play through more fun.

    The AI isn't programmed to handle single district spam well. In fact, the only reason AI korea does so well is because she's flavored to build tons of seowons. She'll surround them with districts because the AI can't handle a seowon, but simply building a lot of them and the attendent buildings gets her way ahead. If they just straight up programmed the AI to spam campuses first it would be waaay more scary. Science is what gives you your military power, and war is extremely strong in civ6. The military-academic complex is a thing to behold.

    Anyways.
    It's interesting how FXS has this very symmetric district design in how the districts and their buildings work, how adjacency and policy cards for them function, etc. But then, like so many things in the game, they released them with a production cost table that's just based on tech tree location and not benefit of the thing itself.
    But timing is everything with the campus: not only does it come in the ancient era, but the card Natural history comes in the classical!! (All districts get their adj card the era after they unlock. Except maybe harbors. Don't quote me on that.)
    The buildings come relatively quick too. I don't see why they couldn't push it back to the classical. It would help a lot of things.
    Not only that, but the campus has great adjacency options- mountains, jungles, and geothermal fissures. (Compare to a theater square. So sad.) We really have to remember that on release, citizens gave 0.7 science per pop and 0.5 culture; now they give 0.5 each. But the campus itself was never tweaked to reflect that.

    Even worse is that fact tile yields consider 1 science to be worth 1.5 food/prod or 3 gold, but in districts it's 1 production or 2 gold - IE cheap. Campuses are cheap science. It's an outlier among districts. The relative value of even a well placed Industrial zone or a harbor is nothing compared to a campus. (A zero adj campus with all the buildings gives you 14 science. A zero adj CH with the buildings is only 19 gold. An IZ with 3 adj and a coal plant gives you 13 production. The game's tiles consider that science to be worth 21 prod or 42 gold.

    I'm happy about Pingala since he at least gives a pseudo option to leverage high food city for science early if you're doing something like a choral music religion or you have civ bonuses that generate culture for you. The only way to beat a campus spam peacefully is an early gimmick for Free Inquiry Golden age with someone like mali, carthage, etc who can get a lot of those districts down with good adjacency; I think being so hyper focused should come with a drawback (the same as if you only build holy sites first or only build encampments or CHs first. Drawbacks.) that effectively drags on your empire and pushes you to balance things a little bit.
     
    Elhoim, Zuizgond, kaspergm and 3 others like this.
  6. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    @Chefofrats I'm not saying there is a right way to play. I’m saying the Campus is OP. @Sostratus gives a great explanation why. If you disagree - and think the Campus is okay balance-wise - then that’s fine. We just have a different view.

    On the Theatre District, this building is actually much more dynamic than the Campus. It actually provides much less yield than the Campus and unlocks later. The Theatre District only really pumps out culture if you can get Great Writers etc. - but you have to compete for those and even then it takes a while to get them and you can’t store any works until you build the buildings.

    To get science from Campuses ... you just spam them. Not such an interesting mechanic.
     
    PhoenicianGold and Elhoim like this.
  7. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

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    Part of the problem is the double district - first tier building. It would be better If you would just build the library & the campus gets placed implicitly. And i would also like the library just giving +0.3 science per Citizen or something.
     
  8. AriochIV

    AriochIV Analyst

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    In any tech progression game, science is always going to be the best long-term path. There really isn't any way around it that's not laughably unrealistic.
     
    OmegaDestroyer likes this.
  9. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    There’s a lot of ways FXS could rebalance the Campus.

    Personally, I’d like them to have increasing maintenance costs every Era and increasing costs the more you build, so focusing on Science was economically really expensive. I’d maybe nerf the buildings a little (particularly the university), and make their science more dependent on running the right policy cards or having city states.

    But there are clearly other ways it could be done too; eg pushing back the Campus, reworking the buildings more. etc.

    @AriochIV Yes, science is always going to be important, and something people always go for. But that’s kind of my point - getting science should require more work. Actually, the game provides lots of cool ways to get science (see above - I also left out pillaging and population). But they’re irrelevant because you can just spam campuses. The fact the science is so important and also so easy to get really hurts the pacing and difficulty of the game.
     
    Elhoim likes this.
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I like to build lots of harbours and less campus early. It is a gold rush, then shipyards create great unpowered production.
     
  11. IvoryPavane

    IvoryPavane Chieftain

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    Plus your harbours can double up as science districts in the first two eras if you get your golden ages
     
  12. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I do find games more enjoyable if I really limit campuses (...although it’s gets tricky if you then capture cities with them....).

    Getting Free Inquiry becomes a lot more important, and I’m more inclined to use Specialists. Conversly, Science City States becomes a lot less important. I also sometimes then run Campus projects in the cities that do have campuses, meaning I still up my science but at the trade off of those cities being tied up running projects.

    I’ll always build Harbours and chance I get. Lighthouses and Shipyards are very satisfying.
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    ... and produce science themselves.
    The free inquiry does not work that well at anything above king because of the stupid leaf node harbours are down, campi are OP and harbours you have to work hard and sacrifice to get early. Gah.
    If on emperor I get a classic golden I will monumentalise it rather than free enquiry, then push for a medi golden free inquiry.
    On deity you can aim for a medi free inquiry by sacrificing a hard to get classical and it does work, but this shorter era finishes with you seriously lacking in campus and you have buffed the tech tree so campus are more expensive.
    Get your cities and districts in place before kick starting your empire is a very good general rule. This is where people (including myself at times ) fail.... we want to finish those districts.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  14. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Is the campus strong, or other districts weak?

    It doesn't matter if you nerf everything in the campus by half or even to 1/4. People will still build them because there are no alternatives.

    Science was already nerfed in Rise and Fall, and the tech tree was made longer in GS. But still they're the best option.
     
    acluewithout likes this.
  15. Medopu

    Medopu Chieftain

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    The issue isnt science itself but campus spam and how easy it is to massively get ahead with them at no great cost.

    I have an idea. For each technology you research, the neighbors in the vicinity should after certain number of turns get a cost reduction or a eureka.. Also more trade routes should equal faster catching up on unresearched technology.
     
  16. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Ah, like in Civ 4.

    Just funny how they get it right and then forget it.
     
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  17. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

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    Simply implement:

    (1) A partially blind tech tree (alpha centauri)
    (2) Military infrastructure (master of orion 2)
    (3) Prototyping (alpha centauri)

    -> You would need walls, castles, barracks to field a large army, you might need stables to field advanced units like knights and you would not be able to surely say whether you develop those knights in 10 or 30 turns.
     
  18. IvoryPavane

    IvoryPavane Chieftain

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    Ah ha! To be honest my only experience of harbours is on Dido and I tended to beeline to Cothon to get it up and running. It was an initial sacrifice but I always find I make up the science. And I never went monumentality because she’s pretty good at pumping out settlers. By the time I want campuses, I can hard buy the shipyard and get the 8-10 production which makes getting the campus in a bit easier

    Granted the bulk of the games are MP, but I won pretty comfortably on Immortal with a Phonecia science win. But I can see how it might be less desirable if your harbours aren’t half price?
     
  19. BK*

    BK* Chieftain

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    @OP try the real science mod it sounds like something you would enjoy.
     
  20. kaspergm

    kaspergm Warlord

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    Interesting analysis. So how to cut this back in balance? Library only 1 science - seems harsh? University definitely down from 4 science to 3 (unpowered research lab is only 3, lol)? Research lab up from 3 to 4 when unpowered? Cut down on Campus adjacency bonuses? The +2 from geothermal vents seems completely over the top, when they already have so many easy bonuses, so that one could easily be cut down to +1. Cut down mountain bonus from +1 to +0.5?
     
    acluewithout likes this.

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