The case for public tax information.

[Estebonrober]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/13/opinion/sunday/taxes-public.html

This has been on my mind long before Trump became President and actively and directly profited from taking office. There is a long history of tax fraud and knowledge of tax information would help inform workers of their value. I can;t really think of good arguments against this, but I'm sure some on here will try. So please, make your case.

Why shouldn't your tax information be public? By keeping it private we are hiding a lot of crime and allowing a lot of bad actors room to maneuver. We are preventing people form knowing what their relative value is from region to region. We are allowing corporations the ability to buy our politicians. Its possible our president is a patsy fro foreign agents due to exposure of loans. So what are the positive aspects of keeping tax records private?

 

[rah]

Unless I'm running for public office or work in a public job where I could possibly benefit, it's nobody's business. So unless a judge finds it necessary, I have the right to privacy. That's all the reason I really need to give.

 

[Estebonrober]

Unless I'm running for public office or work in a public job where I could possibly benefit, it's nobody's business. So unless a judge finds it necessary, I have the right to privacy. That's all the reason I really need to give.

No it's not, you don't have a right to that privacy. This is a matter of custom, it was different in the past and can be again in the future. Crying about it isn't a reason.

 

[Zkribbler]

No it's not, you don't have a right to that privacy. This is a matter of custom, it was different in the past and can be again in the future. Crying about it isn't a reason.

Roe v. Wade was decided on the issue of the right to privacy.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Btw I get there are all sorts of reasons why people think their tax information should be private, but I'm dubious about whether that actually usurps the utility of having it public.

making 70 million or more tax forms fully public exposes my personal info and tells bad people where to go to find my stuff. but even with redacted forms, if I want to cause you trouble I can go look at your forms and report it for fraudulent. Then somebody has to spend time and effort to verify my story vs yours. And also, if I were very rich and saw that you owned XYZ stock and I wanted to get back at you for some slight, I could look for ways to punish your holding and drive the stock down or hurt the company directly. Make it possible and people will do it.

 

[Estebonrober]

making 70 million or more tax forms fully public exposes my personal info and tells bad people where to go to find my stuff. but even with redacted forms, if I want to cause you trouble I can go look at your forms and report it for fraudulent. Then somebody has to spend time and effort to verify my story vs yours. And also, if I were very rich and saw that you owned XYZ stock and I wanted to get back at you for some slight, I could look for ways to punish your holding and drive the stock down or hurt the company directly. Make it possible and people will do it.

All of that is possible now and all of it is against the law now even if it is hard to prosecute such crimes. So how does tax info make that any more legal? More likely?

 

[Arwon]

They publish eveyone's income tax info in Norway, via a website where you log in and it records what people you look up. Seems like a fun idea.

making 70 million or more tax forms fully public exposes my personal info and tells bad people where to go to find my stuff. but even with redacted forms, if I want to cause you trouble I can go look at your forms and report it for fraudulent. Then somebody has to spend time and effort to verify my story vs yours. And also, if I were very rich and saw that you owned XYZ stock and I wanted to get back at you for some slight, I could look for ways to punish your holding and drive the stock down or hurt the company directly. Make it possible and people will do it.

This might actually just be an argument against having such a weird complicated set of tax laws that require so much information on them.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

This is a recipe for identity theft. My tax records are between me, CRA, and whatever social agencies I deal with that require me to disclose my annual tax assessment. Nobody else is entitled to see this without a damn good reason, such as if I'm suspected of finance-related criminal activity.

 

[Hrothbern]

I see in that NYT article that this is also public info in Wisconsin:
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/71/XII/78/2
Including the following:
Art. 71.78 (2):
"Within 24 hours after any information from any such tax return has been so obtained, the department shall mail to the person from whose return the information has been obtained a notification which shall give the name and address of the person obtaining the information and the reason assigned for requesting the information"

It is not for free !
That same social counter is also in Norway.

This is about societal context, culture and traditions.
How to judge that when your own culture is many miles away from it other than "it does not fit me" or "time for a change... let's see what happens"
If it would be since many decades law in my country (In Norway law since 1882) I would not really like it, but also would not mind that much. It would not influence in any way my political choices.
EDIT: When asked the same question 40 years ago, I would see it as a real positive. But society 40 years ago was really differing from now in terms of excessive abuse from lower moral tresholds by "strangers".
I think this law is very much based on overseeable social scale sizes and a more collective social culture with some social moral repression elements at the expense of the individual "freedom".

It could be outdated by now, also in Norway.
It could be seen in Norway as a protection of good social societal values.

Perhaps someone from Norway having experience with practical effects to react on that !

 

[Bamspeedy]

I see in that NYT article that this is also public info in Wisconsin:
https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/71/XII/78/2
Including the following:
Art. 71.78 (2):
"Within 24 hours after any information from any such tax return has been so obtained, the department shall mail to the person from whose return the information has been obtained a notification which shall give the name and address of the person obtaining the information and the reason assigned for requesting the information"

It is not for free !

Keep reading to see who is limited to seeing the tax returns.

 

[Hrothbern]

Keep reading to see who is limited to seeing the tax returns.

Thx
It differs there certainly compared to Norway !

@Snerk , @Cheetah

Any input you like to give ?

 

[Estebonrober]

This is a recipe for identity theft. My tax records are between me, CRA, and whatever social agencies I deal with that require me to disclose my annual tax assessment. Nobody else is entitled to see this without a damn good reason, such as if I'm suspected of finance-related criminal activity.

Why is it a recipe for identity theft? I'm not understanding why that would be any more of an issue than it already is due to this, it would obviously be possible to redact some information. I'm just not sure why this is the case.

So far what I'm getting from people is a whole lot of sensitivity about the idea, but not much logic.

 

[rah]

Why do you need additional logic of why people prefer their privacy. Do you need logic to understand why I don't want someone looking in my bedroom window?
Tax information can be viewed by authorities to discover if crime has been committed. What additional logic have you given for your neighbors to know?

 

[civvver]

I don't want my neighbors and friends and co workers knowing what my income is.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I don't want my neighbors and friends and co workers knowing what my income is.

You really should if you want to make more money and be treated fairly.

I'm not going to argue against your right to privacy but I am going to argue that the only people who benefit by how closely we all hold our salary information is generally our employers. Not knowing what everyone makes robs you of a lot of bargaining power.

Before graduation, most of my classmates were quite open about the internship and full-time job offers we all got and it helped us all negotiate better deals regularly*. Anyways, to some extent the internet does help with this but sites like Glassdoor are both directly manipulated by employers (by design) and suffer from self-selection problems. The government does compile statistics for various economic sectors but they are not granular enough to be that helpful in many cases.

*Except the one guy who lied incessantly and somehow every time someone got a good offer his offers would retroactively increase (they didn't, he lies sooooo much).

 

[Hrothbern]

The government does compile statistics for various economic sectors but they are not granular enough to be that helpful in many cases.

Employers rule.
We have many Dutch websites doing that statistics. A lot of good intentions but not good enough to really risk bargaining. The fear factor gap ending in the pocket of employers.

What would really be helpfull is when trade unions would slice and dice the info in usefull overviews and more customised info. Especially for the lower-middle functions-incomes.
Not only for employees, but also for self-employed.
Including indexes that change as demand-supply changes over time for sub-sectors.

A chaotic "free market" process needs fuzzy solutions.

 

[rah]

Salary information at work, I agree with. But Tax information is far more than just salary, and my neighbors don't need that to bargain their salary at work.

 

[civvver]

You really should if you want to make more money and be treated fairly.

I'm not going to argue against your right to privacy but I am going to argue that the only people who benefit by how closely we all hold our salary information is generally our employers. Not knowing what everyone makes robs you of a lot of bargaining power.

Before graduation, most of my classmates were quite open about the internship and full-time job offers we all got and it helped us all negotiate better deals regularly*. Anyways, to some extent the internet does help with this but sites like Glassdoor are both directly manipulated by employers (by design) and suffer from self-selection problems. The government does compile statistics for various economic sectors but they are not granular enough to be that helpful in many cases.

*Except the one guy who lied incessantly and somehow every time someone got a good offer his offers would retroactively increase (they didn't, he lies sooooo much).

Your neighbors not in your industry though? Wouldn't that just create a lot of keeping up with the joneses resentment?

And at work, it's a double edged sword. What if you are the top performer getting paid like it and everyone is jealous so your employer uses the reverse and says hey listen you're already the highest paid guy here, we're not giving you a raise this year.

There was that one company in california I think that paid everyone the same cus some stupid study say happiness levels off at 75,000 salary so everyone got adjusted up to that. And worker satisfaction actually went down, probably cus they all looked at someone they perceived as lazy earning just as much as them and got mad they weren't earning more.

 

[Yeekim]

1) "Tax records" is rather ambiguous. I'm sure the extent of information therein differs considerably between jurisdictions.

2) Privacy considerations are an obvious reason. If one's net worth is considerably above your local average, keeping a low profile in order to avoid being targeted by assorted scammers, golddiggers, "friends" and criminals is an entirely sensible wish. I'm undecided on whether and how far it outweighs societal benefits of increased transparency though.

3) FWIW, annual accounts of all legal persons are public in EU. I understand this is not a case in US.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Your neighbors not in your industry though? Wouldn't that just create a lot of keeping up with the joneses resentment?

And at work, it's a double edged sword. What if you are the top performer getting paid like it and everyone is jealous so your employer uses the reverse and says hey listen you're already the highest paid guy here, we're not giving you a raise this year.

There was that one company in california I think that paid everyone the same cus some stupid study say happiness levels off at 75,000 salary so everyone got adjusted up to that. And worker satisfaction actually went down, probably cus they all looked at someone they perceived as lazy earning just as much as them and got mad they weren't earning more.

I don't think pandering to immature people is the basis for sound public policy.