The Cavaleiros Proposal Turn 46

[Kaleb]

Some replies to specific points:

* A Non-Aggression Pact, effective immediately. Since we realize it
would be naive to say it should be never ending, we would like to
propose 1 AD (turn 115) as a first milestone, with renewal 500 years
prior (turn 95). We are very open to other ways to measure the period
of the Pact, if you would prefer.

I'm fine with that

* An agreement to share technological discoveries... it is more important that the trading be smooth and is guided by a cooperative spirit, rather than trying to maximize the benefit and lower the costs for the own team.

We agree it is important to share techs but we also need to consider other local needs that can determine when we go for a specific tech.

* Complete Open Borders, effective immediately. This will be handled
via phony war if necessary, until you have researched Writing, after
which it will be handed by true Open Borders.

We can agree to this although we don't gain anything by doing so.

* An agreement and understanding that we should find and include a
third people in our alliance, for the massive future benefit of all
our people.

Does that also mean that we (ie TK) can be the ones to find the third patner?

Alphabet: 448 / 1.2 = 373
Writing: 179 / 1.4 = 128
Animal H.: 149 / 1.4 = 106
Hunting: 59 / 1.0 = 59
Total base cost: 666

Monarchy: 448 / 1.2 = 373
Priesthood: 89 / 1.2 = 74
Meditation: 119 / 1.2 = 99
Mysticism: 74 / 1.0 = 74

Total base cost: 620

I'm not too keen on how they use the pre-req reductions when calculating a trade. If we researched Writing before Pottery (let's say because we needed a library before a granary) then does that mean it is more valuable in a tech trade??

Or if they teched Polytheism before Priesthood that should be less valuable? I don't follow those arguments.

Should our techs also be worth less because we have the financial trait and that gets us extra ??

Shall we say that we need Mysticism now for culture reasons, so that is off the trade? I think we can do so.

I think we can agree to this:

Alphabet: 448
Writing: 179
TOTAL = 627

Monarchy: 448
Priesthood: 89
Meditation: 119
TOTAL = 656

They are giving slightly more but we are foregoing the option of an early religion and agreeing to them pass through our borders.

We can also keep any surplus in mind when negotiating future trades.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Some replies to specific points:

I'm fine with that

We agree it is important to share techs but we also need to consider other local needs that can determine when we go for a specific tech.

We can agree to this although we don't gain anything by doing so.

Does that also mean that we (ie TK) can be the ones to find the third patner?

I'm not too keen on how they use the pre-req reductions when calculating a trade. If we researched Writing before Pottery (let's say because we needed a library before a granary) then does that mean it is more valuable in a tech trade??

Or if they teched Polytheism before Priesthood that should be less valuable? I don't follow those arguments.

Should our techs also be worth less because we have the financial trait and that gets us extra ??

Shall we say that we need Mysticism now for culture reasons, so that is off the trade? I think we can do so.

I think we can agree to this:

Alphabet: 448
Writing: 179
TOTAL = 627

Monarchy: 448
Priesthood: 89
Meditation: 119
TOTAL = 656

They are giving slightly more but we are foregoing the option of an early religion and agreeing to them pass through our borders.

We can also keep any surplus in mind when negotiating future trades.

The beackers are wrong I think..

minnort differences ....but it should be


Alphabet: 435
Writing: 174
TOTAL = 609

Monarchy: 435
Priesthood: 87
Meditation: 116
TOTAL = 638


so we owe them another 29 and can agree with them another future deal including those beackers.

P.S...NO WAY we will include pre-req's in calculations...and NO WAY we will give them AH and hunting for free....we need to remind them that we are forgoing religion and Oracle by going this way.

 

[Kaleb]

I counted the beakers in-game just to be sure, you can see the numbers here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7662817&postcount=4

 

[Provolution]

Kaleb, can you get off the pitboss please, so I can make some calculations

I think I have a better solution:

Frankly speaking, we only want the Alphabet - Monarchy as the main trade.

Then we may need to agree to a deal including Sailing with Writing (100 to 120), because we then get the gold bonus for seaside trade, for each port city.

Surplus beakers will be considered as part of the next deal, and Prereqs are not considered part of it. We also want comfortable deadlines so research plans can adapt to local needs. Obviously we need a deadline turn for the transaction.

 

[Kaleb]

Kaleb, can you get off the pitboss please, so I can make some calculations

I haven't been logged in since 07:30am

Frankly speaking, we only want the Alphabet - Monarchy as the main trade.

you do know we can't get monarchy and they can't get Alphabet if we don't have the pre-reqs?

 

[Provolution]

I know about the prereqs. But I have a more extensive plan:

Alphabeth-Monarchy
Writing - Priesthood and Masonry (Surplus beakers pays for sailing through our waters before Open Borders is available, turn 50).
Polytheism - Sailing

We research Polytheism after Mysticism, if there is no such religion (Hinduism). Polytheism has the same value as Sailing.
This way, we also get an early religion, and sailing gives us trade bonuses with open borders.


We negotiate this from turn 46, make them wait during our negotiations lasting to turn 48. Vote done by their turn 49, and they can sail through our borders turn 50.

NAP lasts turn 50- 100, renewed by turn 90 for the next 50 turns (100-150).

Open Borders part of it.

 

[Provolution]

I haven't been logged in since 07:30am

you do know we can't get monarchy and they can't get Alphabet if we don't have the pre-reqs?

According to Pitboss, you are still logged in.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I definitely do NOT want to rush for sailing to slave a galley, that would hurt us more than any harm that might come from them sailing through.

btw Sommers, the DoW will not appear to all civs, only those that have contact with both us and Team Cav, ie noone

OK... Thanks for clearing that up Kaleb. I thought that maybe we could avoid slaving a galley by stalling them at the border. I also posted some alternative proposals here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7670774&postcount=186 Sorry, I accidentally posted in the wrong thread. I thought I posted this at 8 or 9 GMT but I just realized that the post did not go through.

Well, I guess the majority see the use for the chat as a valuable supplement. I am also happy that some inflammatory attacks on me as a person in the talks have abated.

I agree that we have been able to gain supplemental intel as a result of the "backchannel." I also think that Provo put his own reputation on the line, for the good of the team by even disclosing his chatlogs, which he was under no obligation to do... It is very easy to sit back and criticize, when others may not have exposed themselves in the same way. My thoughts...

 

[donsig]

One glaring omission from their proposal is exclusivity. Unless we agree not to trade techs to others (with the obvious exception of our third partner) the trech trading alliance is useless.

 

[CommandoBob]

Well, I guess the majority see the use for the chat as a valuable supplement. I have given virtually no intel away, but gained some, and managed to cushion the impact of some negative responses. In fact, we may achieve all we want, as long as we recognize the need for all forms of communication. I am also happy that some inflammatory attacks on me as a person in the talks have abated. Just remember I put the cannons on deck if such curious innuendo comes up. Other than that, I am very happy with how the team has handled the situation, all the kudos to you guys for that.

Oh, stuff it.

I will willing concede that you know more about the game than I do and can better plan how we need to move from Point A to Point B.

But these posts about how Provolution has done no wrong and how all is right with the world because the world agrees with Provolution are tiresome and annoying.

Put a cork on it, will ya?

 

[Provolution]

Yeah, sorry Commandobob, but your personal attacks are tiresome too. I will stick to the issue if people are having less of those ungrounded inflammatory attacks, so I do not need to stand up for myself. I respect you all as fellow players, but that bashing for the chat-period should end now.

 

[CommandoBob]

Except for the above post, would you be so kind as to list my personal attacks?

 

[Provolution]

I think I saw one on another location, regarding the diplomatic exchange, but its not important anymore, lets go on with the game.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yeah, sorry Commandobob, but your personal attacks are tiresome too.

Except for the above post, would you be so kind as to list my personal attacks?

I think I saw one on another location, regarding the diplomatic exchange, but its not important anymore, lets go on with the game.

The bottom line, I think is, that I am the one who has been causing MOST of the conflict with Provolution and there is no reason for more team members to get sucked into it. I take responsibility for the lions share of the conflict, so let's get one with figuring out how to Destroy / Make friends with Cavalieros...

Oh, stuff it.

But these posts about how Provolution has done no wrong are tiresome and annoying.

Consider it stuffed.