The CavKaz Treaty

[Kaleb]

Ok, I think the treaty discussions warrant their own thread as we don't want to drag this out indefinitely.

Here is the preamble to the treaty:

Spoiler :

To our esteemed neighbors Team Kazakhstan, greetings.

We are grateful that the early misunderstandings between our peoples
are giving way to a deeper sense of purpose. We are perhaps a less
formal society than your own, and we obviously have our share of
impetuous young people who neglect to consider the import of their
words before they speak. Nevertheless we do not want to give the wrong
impression of ourselves. Respect and cooperation are our bywords, as
they are yours. To that end, we wish to first clear up a few things
that appear to have been sticking points between us, in the hopes that
we may better assure you of the purity of our intentions.

First, our emissaries left the fair shores of our capital of Ohlo
Serpentem precisely in Turn 30. Young Oyzar's first "30ish" statement
was a qualified guess on his part as he did not fully remember, and
when he went back and saw his guess was correct he did not bother to
mention it. It was never our intention to keep you in the dark
regarding this matter.

Second, we will naturally not enter your territorial waters without
your express permission. That would indeed be a violation of the
spirit of cooperation we hope to foster between our two peoples.
Again, young Oyzar seems to have focused on the wrong things. He
worried too much about how you would react to a phony war, that he
didn't even think to bring up the question of passage first. But it
was never his, or our people's, intention that our explorers sail on
without express permission.

Nevertheless, we do fervently wish that the people of Kazakhstan can
see the advantage to both of us of allowing us to continue on our way,
and can understand the hardship it would entail to the Cavaleiros for
us to turn back now. It has been a long and arduous journey to this
point, and not least of the desires of our emissaries would be to rest
a moment in friendly waters and see some friendly faces once more
before continuing on.

We hope that we have thusly clarified the peaceful and hopeful
aspirations of Team Cavaleiros. We have never wished anything other
than cooperation between our peoples, to the mutual benefit of both
societies. Indeed, it has been the dream of our civilization from its
very inception to discover that we are not alone in this vast and
unfriendly world, and that we may find true partners with whom to
journey through time together. It is our fervent hope that Kazakhstan
and Cavaleiros may be such partners, and we greatly regret, and
apologize for, any and all miscommunications based on cultural and
language barriers.

We also wish to express our gratitude with your highly competent
emissary, Provolution. His hard work to explain and accomodate for our
differences has gone a long way towards making this go as smoothly as
it actually has, despite early misgivings. He has also gone out of his
way to ensure that our treaty accomodates for any flexibility your
people may want, by discussing alternative paths that you may or may
not choose to take, just to see what options are available. We do not
know what, if any, of these paths are actually being actively
considered by your people, nevertheless for our mutual benefit we feel
we want and need to give our view.

The reason we are pushing for a beeline for Alphabet and Monarchy is
that we are working against time. We have a direct need for several
techs from you, for the defense of our homeland. It is not long until
the less civilized people of this world figure out how to make axes
{turn 65-70 or so}, and if we cannot be sure that we receive these
techs in time via trade from you then we will be forced to research
them ourselves. That doesn't mean just a one-tech deviation from the
outlined tech proposal, but a quite severe delay of any mutual
advancement and a loss of several hundred beakers on both sides. We
hope you appreciate what a great loss of an opportunity this is for
our two teams to soar ahead of our peers, and so we really really hope
that you will accept to make your way for Alphabet with haste, for
both our sakes.

We have deliberately worded the treaty in such a way that it makes
room for strong local needs. In particular we fully understand if you
would not want to wait to receive Mysticism from us to expand your
borders, as it is quite cheap and comes with a distinct strategic and
domestic advantage. But we sincerely hope we can make you see the
merits for both of us of sticking to a straight Alphabet/Monarchy
beeline.

We also realize your people may be longing for a religion, but we hope
you can see that Polytheism is not the best way to get there. It holds
next to no intrinsic value other than the religion, and in the early
game it provides no benefits that cannot be gotten cheaper through an
early Hereditary Rule. We will be more than happy to help you found a
religion at a later point, and we have tried to formulate the treaty
to take this into account, should you so wish.

Hopefully we will have addressed all points you hoped we would, and
that you find our proposed treaty worthy of acception. We look forward
to hearing back from you.

Sincerely,
Niklas dos Cavaleiros

Here is the proposed treaty:

§0. Treaty Duration and cancellation terms
* This treaty will last indefinitely, and can only be cancelled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the treaty can not be given before the year 1 AD (turn 115).


§1. Peace and Non-Aggression
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to take no hostile
action of any kind towards the other people.


§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to open borders with
each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately, on both
sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* Upon the completion of Writing by either people, this will be
handled via a formal Open Borders agreement. Until that time, it will
be handled through a phony state of war.


§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* Team Cavaleiros and Team Kazakhstan agree to form an Exclusive Tech Alliance (ETA). Neither member of the ETA will buy, sell or trade technologies with a civ/team outside the ETA without the consent of the other ETA member.
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to cooperate on the
advancement of knowledge to achieve the following trade as soon as possible:
- Team Kazakhstan to give Hunting, Animal Husbandry, Writing, Alphabet
- Team Cavaleiros to give Meditation, Preisthood, Monarchy, Feudalism*
- *If team Cav fail to acieve the Oracle first then Team Kaz will gift Alphabet to Team Cav on the turn the failure is confirmed.
- *If team Cav build the Oracle before being able to slingshot to Feudalism they agree to give the tech they get instead in exchange
* Both peoples agree to adhere to follow the agreed advancement plan as
close as possible:
- Team Kazakhstan to tech Writing > Alphabet
- Team Cavaleiros to tech Priesthood > Monarchy > Feudalism (through Oracle)
* Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable
speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to
deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan may be given in a state of
emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If either people wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify
the other people of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of the respective beelines, the related technologies
will be immediately traded one tech per turn until the full trade is complete.
* Both peoples agree that mutual technological advancement will
continue beyond the completion of the immediate goals, but that plans
for the future are to be negotiated at later points, as addendums to
this treaty.
* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in
such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own
team.


§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree that in the case that
either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to
negotiate a trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no
such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource
to a third people.


§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the
people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan
have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion,
after the completion of the inital advancement plan.
* The people of Kazakhstan agree not to build the Oracle and the people of Cavaleiros agree to build it with all due haste.


§6. Extension
* Both peoples agree that the intent is to find a third
civilized people to include in the Exclusive Tech Alliance, and
agree to work actively towards finding such a people.
* The exact terms of the cooperation with this third people will be
negotiated when relevant, and the contents of this documents are not
to be seen as binding in any way towards this third people unless all three parties agree for it to be so.

NOTE: I will edit this original document once specific parts are agreed to or modified by a majority of voting team members

 

[Kaleb]

As we go through things can we try and use the following format? Put in bold any changes to the original (or latest approved version) of the text. If you agree to a part then say you agree and I will keep a tally of the votes for each section

§1. Peace and Non-Aggression

* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to take no hostile
action of any kind towards the other people.
* This state of peace and non-aggression will last indefinitely, and
can only be cancelled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the state of assured peace can not be given
before the year 1 AD (turn 115).

I'm fine with this. We can extend it as we wish.

§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to open borders with
each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately, on both
sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* Upon the completion of Writing by either people, this will be
handled via a formal Open Borders agreement. Until that time, it will
be handled through a phony state of war.

I'm also fine with this.

§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree that in the case that
either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to
negotiate a trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no
such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource
to a third people.

I agree

 

[Kaleb]

§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to cooperate on the
advancement of knowledge to get to Alphabet and Monarchy as soon as
possible.
* Both peoples agree to adhere to the attached advancement plan as
close as possible.
* Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable
speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to
deal with adverse events or unit upgrades.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan may be given in a state of
emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If either people wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify
the other people of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of the respective beelines, the related technologies
will be immediately traded to the other people.
* Both peoples agree that mutual technological advancement will
continue beyond the completion of the immediate goals, but that plans
for the future are to be negotiated at later points, as addendums to
this treaty.

I think we can remove this next bit. It doesn't really add anything and I can see it causing arguments

* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own
team.

I'll post up my suggested 'apendix' in a moment

 

[Kaleb]

§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the
people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan
have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion,
after the completion of the inital advancement plan if they are not the first to tech CoL.

I'm adding this bit in so we can put CoL as part of teh inital advancement plan.

 

[Provolution]

Well, in my edit we specified some details on the circumstances around Feudalism with the Oracle, and that they should have a deadline for building it, and that they are not liable if they are beaten to it by another player.

They were clear that as soon as we get a third player on board, we have an exclusive research system omitting the two other players. I also got the idea about "mutual consent" meant we traded with them right away without holding back, but adjusting for beaker costs. When meeting another civ we should really consider if the tech trade is worth it, if it will impair our master-demographic reader allies.

Mars sier:
competing with these guys
just figure out the oracle/feudalism thing
Niklas Broberg sier:
well, we still need that counter proposal from yu
*you
we're more or less decided it seems
Mars sier:
ok
we want to know about trading tech to 3rd parties
exclusive, or mutual consent?
Niklas Broberg sier:
mutual trading
Mars sier:
that is exclusivity?
Niklas Broberg sier:
no, I don't think so
not in my interpretation of the word
Mars sier:
that techs we develop we can trade freely to third parties?
what about brokering?
Niklas Broberg sier:
what I mean is, once we seal this treaty, there will be no "we" and "you", only "us together"
any trade one of us trades for, the other should receive
and we should communicate to set up the best trades possible
for the benefit of both
so I guess that falls under "mutual consent", no?
Mars sier:
all rite
I will make that clear to the other guys
we agree
most of us
Niklas Broberg sier:
cool
are you any close to sending a counter proposal then?
we want this formally settled asap
Mars sier:
ok good
I need people on the forums this evening
I guess we have it ratified before the weekend
Niklas Broberg sier:
before the weekend sounds good
would it speed up the process any if we were to fix up the proposal and send it to you?
instead of the other way around I mean
seeing how we seem to be working a bit faster...
we have 80-90% of all actives available on MSN, as opposed to you where I guess it's more like 10%

 

[cav scout]

there will be no "we" or "you", only "us together"

Wow, do we really want to weld ourselves to Team Cav so firmly this early in the game? We haven't even met a 3rd Civ. Seems like they are really wanting someone to keep them competitive tech wise while they can leverage their expansive trait. How does this bode for us later in the game when we have tech parity with them and they have more land?

 

[Provolution]

I think we should consider trades with another civ if we find it with the workboat. But we will not make a big fuss about this until we get Feudalism, then we may look into how this cooperation proceeds.

 

[Kaleb]

Hmm, we already have a thread for general diplomacy with Team Cav. I started this thread so we could focus, specifically on the wording of the actual treaty.

Well, in my edit we specified some details on the circumstances around Feudalism with the Oracle, and that they should have a deadline for building it, and that they are not liable if they are beaten to it by another player.

Great, can you post that edit here please?

They were clear that as soon as we get a third player on board, we have an exclusive research system omitting the two other players. I also got the idea about "mutual consent" meant we traded with them right away without holding back, but adjusting for beaker costs. When meeting another civ we should really consider if the tech trade is worth it, if it will impair our master-demographic reader allies.

If they are 'clear' in the chat but not clear in the treaty, then tough luck to them.

If trading right away, without holding back isn't in the treaty, then we aren't bound to that. The only 'trading right away' bit in this treaty relates to the agree technology share (which I'll come on to in a moment). An other such 'trade right away' deals will have to be agreed in advance or done as and when both teams have the techs to trade.

FYI Niklas was even suggesting to me that we should just trade everything with each other regardless of beaker cost. I basically said, in a polite way, "get stuffed". That would only mean them taking us for a ride. He is still insisting on factoring in pre-req bonusses which I said we didn't think were valid. I'm not going to pay someone more for cleaing my floor with a toothbrush just because it was harder to do than if they used a mop!

We don't need to put the bulb costs in the proposal, just make the proposal. We aren't binding ourselves to all that much with the above wording beyond the initial tech deal.

Wow, do we really want to weld ourselves to Team Cav so firmly this early in the game? We haven't even met a 3rd Civ. Seems like they are really wanting someone to keep them competitive tech wise while they can leverage their expansive trait. How does this bode for us later in the game when we have tech parity with them and they have more land?

I agree, they are desperate to find someone to help them keep up technology wise as they are the only non-financial civ. If we want a tech deal they will need to make sure they pull their own weight.

 

[Provolution]

The edit is posted in my response in the intel thread.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Wow, do we really want to weld ourselves to Team Cav so firmly this early in the game? How does this bode for us later in the game when we have tech parity with them and they have more land?

My response to this is that we DO want to weld ourselves... until it is NOT in our best interest. It seems to me, that at least in the very near future, a tech "sharing", rather than tech "trading" approach will be the easiest way to get the other teams destroyed as quickly as possible.

If this is the route we are leaning towards, we have to be cognizant of Cav's point here... We have to press continually for Cavalieros to participate in war against the other alliance / left-out civs. If we are going to tech share, we cannot plan on this being a space race / score contest. We have to war early and often to keep Cavalieros from being able to focus on expansion. I think the treaty might even include language like this:

Both partners agree that once our New "supernation" has located and incorporated a third partner, we will abandon all other focuses and long term goals in favor of a concerted, continuous campaign to elimminate the civs that are not part of the alliance. This includes a focus on building military units and gaining military tech.

I also agree with the following statement by Provolution:

we will not make a big fuss about this until we get Feudalism, then we may look into how this cooperation proceeds.

Until we get Feudalism through the Oracle slingshot, we should be on board with the "one nation, one people" philosophy. We can re-asses once we get Feudalism.

* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own
team.

I like this language and don't think it should be dropped from the treaty. I agree Kaleb, that it is vague and can be easily interpreted / abused / adapted, but this helps us as well as them. I think the point is that we will share techs without holding back, without regard to discrepancies. The goal is to blaze forward in tech as quiclkly as possible.

 

[Provolution]

Proposal: The CavKaz Treaty

§1. Peace and Non-Aggression

* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to take no hostile
action of any kind towards the other people.
* This state of peace and non-aggression will last indefinitely, and
can only be cancelled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the state of assured peace can not be given
before the year 1 AD (turn 115).


§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to open borders with
each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately (turn 49), on both
sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* Upon the completion of Writing by either people, this will be
handled via a formal Open Borders agreement. Until that time, it will
be handled through a phony state of war.


§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to cooperate on the
advancement of knowledge to get to Alphabet and Monarchy as soon as
possible.
* Both peoples agree to adhere to the attached advancement plan as
close as possible.
* Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable
speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to
deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan may be given in a state of
emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If either people wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify
the other people of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of the respective beelines, the related technologies
will be immediately traded to the other people.
* Both peoples agree that mutual technological advancement will
continue beyond the completion of the immediate goals, but that plans
for the future are to be negotiated at later points, as addendums to
this treaty.
* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in
such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own
team.


§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree that in the case that
either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to
negotiate a trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no
such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource
to a third people.


§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the
people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan
have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion,
after the completion of the inital advancement plan (Code of Law/Philosophy).
* Both peoples recognize that if either team builds the Oracle, to be
negotiated at a later point, then the free technology received (Feudalism) will be
shared with the other people, against a reasonable compensation (150 beakers) for
the investment of hammers (presumably a smaller research load during
that period). Feudalism will then be transferred immediately once researched.
This clause is provided Team Cavaleiros manages to build Oracle first, ahead of any rival team.


§6. Extension
* Both peoples agree that the intent is to find and include a third
civilized people with which to share technological advancement, and
agree to work actively towards finding such a people.
* The exact terms of the cooperation with this third people will be
negotiated when relevant, and the contents of this documents are not
to be seen as binding in any way towards this third people.

 

[Kaleb]

Can you edit so that to only show the bits that are different from post 1 please? And can you highlight the bits you've changed??

If you agree with the wording of a part of the original text can you just quote it and say you agree?

Sorry if this sounds pedantic but I just can't see how we are going to actually agree on any precise wording if we all just past in full our own version of the treaty. We need to agree on things piece-by-piece

 

[Provolution]

§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the
people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan
have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion,
after the completion of the inital advancement plan (Code of Law/Philosophy).
* Both peoples recognize that if either team builds the Oracle, to be
negotiated at a later point, then the free technology received (Feudalism) will be
shared with the other people, against a reasonable compensation (150 beakers) for
the investment of hammers (presumably a smaller research load during
that period). Feudalism will then be transferred immediately once researched.
This clause is provided Team Cavaleiros manages to build Oracle first, ahead of any rival team.

 

[cav scout]

yes lets do it one article at a time

 

[Kaleb]

Thanks for being so accomodating

§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the
people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan
have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion,
after the completion of the inital advancement plan (Code of Law/Philosophy).

I prefer my wording *IF* we include CoL in the 'initial plan'

* Both peoples recognize that if either team builds the Oracle, to be
negotiated at a later point, then the free technology received (Feudalism) will be
shared with the other people, against a reasonable compensation (150 beakers) for
the investment of hammers (presumably a smaller research load during
that period). Feudalism will then be transferred immediately once researched.
This clause is provided Team Cavaleiros manages to build Oracle first, ahead of any rival team.

I think we can be more bold and put it in the treaty that they will go for Oracle and we won't.

We then need to have a technology trade option 1, if they succed on getting oracle and Feudalism, and an option 2 if they don't.

We don't want to give them techs for them not to get Oracle and have something pawltry to give us instead.

This is how Cav have suggested the tech trade originally:

Spoiler :

Appendix for tech costs:

We have the following costs when prerequisite modifiers are accounted for:

[pre]Alphabet: 448 / 1.2 = 373
Writing: 179 / 1.4 = 128
Animal H.: 149 / 1.4 = 106
Hunting: 59 / 1.0 = 59
Total base cost: 666

Monarchy: 448 / 1.2 = 373
Priesthood: 89 / 1.2 = 74
Meditation: 119 / 1.2 = 99
Mysticism: 74 / 1.0 = 74
Total base cost: 620[/pre]

 

[Kaleb]

This is how I think we should trade:

Once we have Alphabet we give:

Hunting = 59
Animal Husbandry = 149
Writing = 179
Alphabet = 448
TOTAL = 835

They give:
Meditation = 119
Priesthood = 89
Monarchy = 448
TOTAL = 656

They then give us whatever they tech from Oracle. Ideally Feudalism (= 1046!) if they get Writing by the time Oracle is complete.

We do very well out of this deal!! When making the proposal we should leave the beaker costs out. They are perfectly right to say no to this, but is there any harm in asking?

 

[Provolution]

Kaleb, be reasonable. now I am feeling you are jeopardizing the deal. We go along with the 150 added beaker cost for the hammers, thats how it should be. We should also go along with the minute advantage wording. The less paranoid they feel, the bigger chance we get the feudalism lock in.

 

[cav scout]

Kaleb,

I like it if we think we can trust them to win the Oracle and then give us Feudalism.

We would be giving them an advance on beakers (slightly less than 150) for Feudalism. There should be a clause that if they loose Oracle they reimburse us the beakers. Their plan hinges on our help so they will probably agree to this.

Speaking to the treaty in general- less is more! Lets not tie our hands with a bunch of different articles and clauses. We should trim the Cav proposal down to the business at hand and continue to profess goodwill and continued cooperation.

 

[Provolution]

I think we should let them have a shot on the Oracle, but they need the insurance against another team building it. However, if they do not make it within turn 68-69 (Oracle), then we are "questioning the commitment" to our cooperation, given their expert civ skills.

We do not need to trim the treaty too much, it does its job with the Oracle/Feudalism within tun 69 and CoL, and the 150 beakers compensation for feudalism.

I know how these guys think. so do a few of us here, so no brinkmanship right now.

 

[cav scout]

They need to commit to start the Oracle once they have priesthood or no deal. I'm not worried though, they will go for it all out i'm sure.

And geez we're not doing brinkmanship Provo...what are you talking about?