The CavKaz Treaty

[Provolution]

Cavscout, remember that Oracle cannot be completed before we do the tech trade, as they need writing as a prereq. So please do not work against that. I want Feudalism, not anything else.

What I mean with brinkmanship is that we ask for the beakers back if their oracle is late (Should be completed at the latest 2 turns after Monarchy), as well as requiring them to start oracle as soon as they got priesthood (nullifying the feudalism option). Brinkmanship is also omitting the brotherly language.

 

[cav scout]

I know about the prereq- The idea is for them to start it as soon as possible and then halt production at 1 left until they have all the techs they need for Feudalism. They need to be ready to pop the Oracle the minute we do the Alphabet-Monarchy trade. If not then some other team will sneak in and pop it for CoL and the plan will be ruined.

And I don't think labeling the concept of good faith negotiation as "brinkmanship" is fair. We don't have to do things exactly the way Team Cav wants to do it or not at all. We can bounce ideas back and forth, each side can compromise a little and we can reach an agreement. So don't worry, if we bargain a bit in good faith they are still going to be our friends Provo.

Oh, and they need this deal more than we do by the way. We have a good bargaining position, so lets come back with a reasonable offer instead of just rolling over to whatever they propose on the first go around. Sheesh.

 

[donsig]

All right guys, as I have said before in other threads I will not vote for a treaty that includes a phony war. Why are you all are dead set on allowing that after Team Cav said they'd wait. We really need to send Team Cav the message that they cannot assume we will eventually agree to their every wish and whim. We need to stand firm and make them wait until we get writing and can have open borders.

As for wedding ourselves to Team Cav I am also against that because there is no exclusivity clause. Why are we bothering to marry them when either one of us can fool around on the side?

I really think most of this team is getting lost in the details of the treaty and are missing some of the major points. Perhaps this is what Team Cav wants.

 

[Provolution]

Cavscout, you are exaggerating rolling over... I made CoL and the Feudalism part of the deal. If we get Feudalism for 150 beakers, that is hardly rolling over in my book. We really changed their original offer (they tried to get away with Feudalism in secret).

So, we did not follow the original script of Team Cav, and we have been bargaining hard. Time to get the treaty rolling, as our beeline is set anyways.

the thing we can be tricky about, is to let our workboat do a few tech deals on its own.

 

[cav scout]

Provo- your right about rolling over. The deal has certainly improved to something worthwhile with the inclusion of Feudalism. So I apologize for that. I thought Kaleb's proposal was perfectly reasonable so I was taking issue with the brinkmanship thing.

Donsig- I agee.

 

[Provolution]

As there is no exclusivity clause, we can do the alphabet trades on our own, before we deal with Team Cav. They did not want the exclusivity lock-in, so its ok.

 

[Sommerswerd]

What the heck is "brinkmanship?" I think the treaty is fine as worded WITH Provo's additions to the religion/Oracle section AND the tech trading scheme last suggeted by Kaleb. We are taking a HUGE risk by giving so much tech for so little, giving up Oracle, early religion and sailing. They pay us back by gifting us Feudalism... or whatever they get from Oracle. That's the trade-off... The risk we take by trusting them and giving so much up front for them paying a high price later.

With Only 1 turn left for mysticism. I feel like there is a little more presure to seal the deal so that we don't waste time on writing instead of sailing if the deal is not ready to go.

I also did not like the phony war thing, until they agreed to wait for permission to enter borders. If they cross border without permission then I would say we scrap the whole treaty and wait to meet next civ OR at least bean count a lot more with the trade. If they are waiting at the border for treaty, then we should get as much as possible out of this treaty... and soon. with less focus on the bean counting.

 

[cav scout]

Brinkmanship is high-stakes diplomacy. Like the Cuban Missile Crisis and the world on the brink of nuclear war.

 

[Provolution]

I did not react particularly strong to Kalebs proposal. The thing I am most skeptical to, is to wait for open borders, that will certainly piss them off.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Brinksmanship is high-stakes diplomacy. Like the Cuban Missile Crisis and the world on the brink of nuclear war.

Thanks Cav!

They have to wait at border until we have a treaty... period. If they are not willing to wait then they won't be a respectful and reliable ally. I really support this treaty and the "tech-sharing", "one nation" premise... At least until we have Feudalism... after that we'll see... But if they cross border I would revert my thinking to the suspicious "Let's rush sailing" mentality.

 

[donsig]

With Only 1 turn left for mysticism. I feel like there is a little more presure to seal the deal so that we don't waste time on writing instead of sailing if the deal is not ready to go.

I thought we agreed long ago that after building a couple settlers we wanted to begin work on a library so we could get an academy soon. To do that we need writing. I don't see writing after mysticism as being a waste of time. I also do not think we need to rush into a treaty of this magnitude simply because we must begin a new tech next turn. BTW, is it time yet to go to zero research for a turn or two?

 

[cav scout]

We have time to get Sailing (or some other tech) and Writing before the 2nd settler is done. But we still might want to get Writing first.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I thought we agreed long ago that after building a couple settlers we wanted to begin work on a library so we could get an academy soon. To do that we need writing.

Well said Don, and correct as usual. We DO need writing for the academy. Since we are going for writing next anyway, I feel better about stalling a little on the treaty.

We have time to get Sailing (or some other tech) and Writing before the 2nd settler is done. But we still might want to get Writing first.

Agreed, we should get writing next.

Something else I wanted to mention, is that we should not focus too much on Cavalieros using this treaty to prop up their teching with our financial trait. After all, we are not the only civ with the financial trait... everyone else (except Cavalieros) has the trait as well. So cavalieros choice is not between us propping them up and falling behind... the choice is between us propping them up and someone else propping them up.

I would rather it was us.

 

[Indiansmoke]

Here are my thoughts on the deal.

1. We trade writting + Alpha for monarchy + medi + priesthood and they shoot for Feudalism off Oracle...IF they get it, we give them AH and hunting and they give us Feudalism...if they lose it..tough luck for both of us, we give them nothing more.

2. They allow us to go for CoL first

3. No hostilities until 1AD

4. We allow their workboat through phony war, but we tell them to not sit on the clam.

5. First option on resource trade

Optional under discussion
6. After original deal, they go for sailing and math and we go for CoL..we share the techs immidiattely as one team has it...

 

[Kaleb]

Kaleb, be reasonable. now I am feeling you are jeopardizing the deal. We go along with the 150 added beaker cost for the hammers, thats how it should be. We should also go along with the minute advantage wording. The less paranoid they feel, the bigger chance we get the feudalism lock in.

What? '150 added beaker cost' you say? Isn't the difference between what we are giving and what cav give more than 150?

We can leave 'minute advantage' in, ok. It's vague enough not to hamper us.

 

[Provolution]

Well, how many oppose the phoney war, that is what we need to know:

Donsig, possibly also Cavscout and Sommerswerd opposes it. I know I can go for Phoney War, turn 49, Indiansmoke, Kaleb and so on thinks the same. Honestly, I think we need a poll on the phoney war.

 

[cav scout]

I don't like the "minute advantage" clause, it gives them the ability to complain about anything we do that they don't agree with.

 

[Provolution]

What? '150 added beaker cost' you say? Isn't the difference between what we are giving and what cav give more than 150?

We can leave 'minute advantage' in, ok. It's vague enough not to hamper us.

With minute advantage, they mean a few tens of beakers. Niklas is a PhD student by the way, which can explain his different take on things than oyzar.

 

[Provolution]

I don't like the "minute advantage" clause, it gives them the ability to complain about anything we do that they don't agree with.

It seems we are already having a culture for complaining both ways here, so having it in writing is sort of reassuring. I am in particularly referencing the intention to reject them entry for 6 more turns and not considering feudalism for 150 beakers a good deal.

However, I agree with those players that oppose giving away our financial lead to them, sponsoring their research.

 

[Kaleb]

@donsig: if you want an exclusivity clause can you write up so we can discuss it?

@everyone: If it doesn't say in the treaty we *have* to ally with the next civ we meet then we don't need to discuss that in this thread.

We are in a hurry to do this deal to give Cav the best shot at building Oracle 1st.

Here are my thoughts on the deal.

1. We trade writting + Alpha for monarchy + medi + priesthood and they shoot for Feudalism off Oracle...IF they get it, we give them AH and hunting and they give us Feudalism...if they lose it..tough luck for both of us, we give them nothing more.

2. They allow us to go for CoL first

3. No hostilities until 1AD

4. We allow their workboat through phony war, but we tell them to not sit on the clam.

5. First option on resource trade

Optional under discussion
6. After original deal, they go for sailing and math and we go for CoL..we share the techs immidiattely as one team has it...

I agree with all the above. I hadn't specified the order in which we give techs as we can't give alphabet and writing on same turn anyway.
or receive med+PH on same turn. But I get your point and agree. It should all happen pretty quick anyway.

I don't think we need point 6 as by this stage we could have a 3rd party who could research that for us.

Btw the half move for the clam, plus the 1 turn wait means our wb is now 10 turns ahead of them.