The CavKaz Treaty

[cav scout]

@Provo- Fair enough, I guess the sword cuts both way. The clause is so vague as to be unenforceable anyways. I usually lean towards removing unnecessary or unclear language though.

 

[Provolution]

I back up Indiansmokes proposal, this is what I want at least. Now we got three votes for Indiansmokes proposal. (Indiansmoke, Kaleb and Provo).

COL and Feudalism are already handled. We get a first shot on CoL, should we want it. If we dont want it, the first shot is lost.

 

[cav scout]

I can back Indiansmoke's proposal as well.

I will also support the phony war, but only after our treaty with Team Cav is finalized (whatever version we eventually hammer out with them). They also better not stop on our clam or I will go postal and DoW for real on their ass.

 

[Provolution]

Now we got 4 votes for Indiansmokes proposal. (Cavscout, Indiansmoke, Kaleb and Provo).

 

[Provolution]

Proposal: The CavKaz Treaty

§1. Peace and Non-Aggression

* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to take no hostile
action of any kind towards the other people.
* This state of peace and non-aggression will last indefinitely, and
can only be cancelled by written notice 20 turns in advance.
* Such notice to cancel the state of assured peace can not be given
before the year 1 AD (turn 115).


§2. Open Borders
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to open borders with
each other, to allow the free passage of units and merchants alike.
* This state of Open Borders will be effective immediately (turn 49), on both
sides, from the signature of this treaty.
* Upon the completion of Writing by either people, this will be
handled via a formal Open Borders agreement. Until that time, it will
be handled through a phony state of war, starting by the signature of this treaty, with the provision that sailing over the clam is not permissible and the boat should sail around it.


§3. Mutual Technological Advancement
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree to cooperate on the
advancement of knowledge to get to Alphabet and Monarchy as soon as
possible (before turn 70).
* Both peoples agree to adhere to the attached advancement plan as
close as possible.
* Both peoples agree to carry out research at the highest sustainable
speed, with no stockpiling of gold beyond that reasonably needed to
deal with adverse events.
* Exceptions to the advancement plan may be given in a state of
emergency, or in the case of an urgent domestic need.
* If either people wishes to invoke such an exception, it must notify
the other people of its intent and reasons for the deviation.
* Upon completion of the respective beelines, the related technologies
will be immediately traded to the other people.
* Both peoples agree that mutual technological advancement will
continue beyond the completion of the immediate goals, but that plans
for the future are to be negotiated at later points, as addendums to
this treaty.
* Both peoples agree that a cooperative spirit is more important in
such an alliance than strict adherence to minute advantage to the own
team.

T66 Writing, Animal Husbandry and Hunting for Meditation
T67 Priesthood gifted to Kazakhstan
T68 Alphabet for Monarchy
T69: - Oracle completed, Feudalism transferred to us. by turn 69

§4. Resources
* The peoples of Cavaleiros and Kazakhstan agree that in the case that
either team has a spare resource to trade, they will first try to
negotiate a trade with the other people of this treaty. Only if no
such deal is possible will the people consider trading that resource
to a third people.


§5. Religion and Oracle
* The people of the Cavaleiros recognize the wishes and needs of the
people of Kazakhstan for a religion, and will agree to let Kazakhstan
have priority for researching any technology that leads to a religion,
after the completion of the initial advancement plan (Code of Law/Philosophy).
* Both peoples recognize that Cavaleiros builds the Oracle, then the free technology received (Feudalism) will be
shared with Kazakhstan, against a reasonable compensation equivalent of 150 beakers) for
the investment of hammers (presumably a smaller research load during
that period). Feudalism will then be transferred immediately once researched.



§6. Extension
* Both peoples agree that the intent is to find and include a third
civilized people with which to share technological advancement, and
agree to work actively towards finding such a people.
* The exact terms of the cooperation with this third people will be
negotiated when relevant, and the contents of this documents are not
to be seen as binding in any way towards this third people.

 

[cav scout]

I would remove that part about 10s of beakers in the "minute advantage" clause. Leave it vague the way they wrote it or take the whole thing out.

Also I would give them clear dibs on the Oracle, with the expectation they are going to actively pursue it and share the free tech with us.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I would remove that part about 10s of beakers in the "minute advantage" clause. Leave it vague the way they wrote it or take the whole thing out.

Yea take it off...what is that about anyway?

 

[Provolution]

ok minute advantage is taken out.

 

[classical_hero]

Why are we trying to get Feud, should we try and get CS with the Oracle?

 

[Indiansmoke]

Why are we trying to get Feud, should we try and get CS with the Oracle?

It will take too long...and at the end we will lose Oracle

 

[Provolution]

So, we can fly with the revision, most of us? Feudalism is now tagged with Alphabet/Monarchy/Feudalism and the 150 beakers. And we are now requiring the Oracle gambit to work out for the AH and hunting to be released.

 

[Provolution]

We should not stall this any longer, and forcing them to wait too long on the border does not help long term relations, I say we let them through turn 49, our workboat is way ahead (10 turns), they will also sail past the clam.

but there are still some resentment over the time you take, one even suggested you are deliberately making us wait so you can send out your own explorer ahead
whatever good that would do

 

[Kaleb]

I back up Indiansmokes proposal, this is what I want at least. Now we got three votes for Indiansmokes proposal. (Indiansmoke, Kaleb and Provo).

Good, but I don't see how smoke's proposal (which you support) is different to mine which you think may 'jeopardise the deal'??

... I am in particularly referencing the intention to reject them entry for 6 more turns and not considering feudalism for 150 beakers a good deal.

I'm really not getting you here. Who exactly is not considering feudalism for 150 beakers a good deal?

* Both peoples recognize that Cavaleiros builds the Oracle, then the free technology received (Feudalism) will be shared with Kazakhstan, against a reasonable compensation (Hunting and Animal Husbandry and the equivalent of 150 beakers) for the investment of hammers (presumably a smaller research load during that period). Feudalism will then be transferred immediately once researched. This clause is provided Team Cavaleiros manages to build Oracle first, ahead of any rival team.

Why don't we actually spell out exactly what the deal with Feudalism is?

What is wrong with this exchange?:

We give
Hunting = 59
Animal Husbandry = 149
Writing = 179
Alphabet = 448
TOTAL = 835

They give:
Meditation = 119
Priesthood = 89
Monarchy = 448
TOTAL = 656 (NB: more than 150 less than what we are giving)

They then give us Feudalism and the deal is complete.

We can discuss new tech trades beyond this point, but up to here we are equal.

If we want to give exact turns then we can spell out the deal as follows, using T65 as the estimate for when we will get Alphabet:

T65: Writing for Meditation - Oracle completed
T66: Hunting for Priesthood
T67: Alphabet for Monarchy
T68: Animal Husbandry for Feudalism

Remember, you can't give someone a tech if they don't have the required prereq for it or if they have only received the prereq for it on the same turn. So Cav will need to give us their techs 1 at a time each turn.

Should we put this ordering into the deal? I think it's a detail we can sort out later.

 

[Kaleb]

We should not stall this any longer, and forcing them to wait too long on the border does not help long term relations, I say we let them through turn 49, our workboat is way ahead (10 turns), they will also sail past the clam.

We'll send them our proposal before we end our turn. If they agree to it as it is they can sail through on their turn. I'm fine with that. Any longer and they will feel as if we are trying to delay them for our own benefit.

 

[Provolution]

We'll send them our proposal before we end our turn. If they agree to it as it is they can sail through on their turn. I'm fine with that. Any longer and they will feel as if we are trying to delay them for our own benefit.

I totally agree on this. If we were problematic, we may gain at max one more turn delay, but more than that would have seriously marginalized relations.

 

[Provolution]

Good, but I don't see how smoke's proposal (which you support) is different to mine which you think may 'jeopardise the deal'??

I'm really not getting you here. Who exactly is not considering feudalism for 150 beakers a good deal?

Why don't we actually spell out exactly what the deal with Feudalism is?

What is wrong with this exchange?:

We give
Hunting = 59
Animal Husbandry = 149
Writing = 179
Alphabet = 448
TOTAL = 835

They give:
Meditation = 119
Priesthood = 89
Monarchy = 448
TOTAL = 656 (NB: more than 150 less than what we are giving)

They then give us Feudalism and the deal is complete.

We can discuss new tech trades beyond this point, but up to here we are equal.

If we want to give exact turns then we can spell out the deal as follows, using T65 as the estimate for when we will get Alphabet:

T65: Writing for Meditation - Oracle completed
T66: Hunting for Priesthood
T67: Alphabet for Monarchy
T68: Animal Husbandry for Feudalism

Remember, you can't give someone a tech if they don't have the required prereq for it or if they have only received the prereq for it on the same turn. So Cav will need to give us their techs 1 at a time each turn.

Should we put this ordering into the deal? I think it's a detail we can sort out later.

I think the counting of beakers, which differs between the teams, and the handling of feudalism is different.

I agree to the timeframe Kaleb, but we should give a little more in addition to what is here (worth 150 beakers). Feudalism is worth 1000 + beakers, and I really want this deal to happen. They sacrifice hammers for growth, their oracle means less workers and settlers for them, which means they would have less cities, as remaining cities would need to build defending units.

 

[Kaleb]

I think we can put this to them as part of the deal:

T65: Writing for Meditation - Oracle completed
T66: Hunting for Priesthood
T67: Alphabet for Monarchy
T68: Animal Husbandry for Feudalism

We don't need to specify anywhere in this treaty the actual bulb costs. Let's just put it out like that and see if they accept.

 

[donsig]

@donsig: if you want an exclusivity clause can you write up so we can discuss it?

Instead of writing up a lengthy clause I would just ask Team Cav about the idea in principle, as I suggested in the Team Cav embassy thread. I've updated the proposed note to reassure them that we are working on writing and expect to seal a beeline deal with them but there is minutae to haggle over:

Hi Team Cavaleiros,

We are pondering your proposed treaty and have a couple questions to ask:

1. Are you willing to have your work boat wait outside our borders until we can have an in game open borders agreement?
2. Are you willing to agree that neither of our teams will trade any techs to any other team unless both our teams agree to such a trade?

We are very interested in securing the beeline version of the alphabet for monarchy mega deal as well as participating in the feudalism for Oracle plan but before we agree to any specific treaty we need answers to the two questions above. While working on the proposed treaty negotiations we intend to research writing as soon as we finish mysticism next turn.

Thanks,
Team Kazakhstan

I will be off line again today for several hours. I respectfully ask that this note be sent to Team Cav before we send a revised treaty to them. I do not feel comfortable sending the note on my own initiative but ask someone to send it soon unless there is a great outcry against it.

 

[Kaleb]

Thing is we have already asked them point 1) and they really don't want to. As far as I am aware, I think most people on our side are also happy for them to pass through before we have open borders.

Regarding point 2) this also prevents us from negotiating our own tech trade with civ3. saying we can't trade any techs with another team without their approval pretty much removes the point of our workboat getting to team 3 first. So then why bother delaying their workboat?

 

[Provolution]

T65: Writing for Meditation - Oracle completed
T66: Hunting for Priesthood
T67: Alphabet for Monarchy
T68: Animal Husbandry for Feudalism

This will not fly. Oracle will not be completed as soon as you may think, they will have it ready before turn 70, most likely turn 68. They also need us to transfer hunting and animal husbandry right away (we need to show good faith here). They will not burn us for a few beakers in the lower end of techs.


This is the trade sequence Niklas sanctions. I know we got a few hardliners in our team, but this is the best we can do. Thinking only zero-sum games here would do us no good.

T66 Writing, Animal Husbandry and Hunting for Meditation
T67 Priesthood gifted to Kazakhstan
T68 Alphabet for Monarchy
T69: - Oracle completed, Feudalism transferred to us. by turn 69