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The Celts versus the Iroquois

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by del62, Apr 5, 2011.

  1. del62

    del62 Deity

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    Two of the strongest civs, if not the strongest civs for early warfare on all levels and map sizes

    I thought I would do a little comparison on their relative strengths

    Both have early boost of being agricultural, given a cow on a river, despotic settler factories are not to difficult to set up.

    There UUs both have ab attack of 3, but the celts have a defensive bonus, the mw is cheaper though

    The Iriqoius can find there UU resource much quicker, but the Celts can build units to upgrade from day1.

    As far as starting techs, Alphabet is better than CB, giving an early start on writing.

    I still cant make my mind up which is better, what do you think?
     
  2. ChaosArbiter

    ChaosArbiter King

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    Celts. No poll?
     
  3. del62

    del62 Deity

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    Ill try and set up a poll.

    Edit : I dont think you can add poll after you posted thread.
     
  4. Hasdrubal Barca

    Hasdrubal Barca Emperor

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    Iroquois is commercial, less corruption, Celts can change government as they please, giving them no anarchy period.

    Iroquois can also build Chariots to upgrade to Mounted Warriors, although the Warrior-Gallic seems better in short term, hard to tell which is better but i´d say that in 1 on 1, Celts would won due to fast changing to better Gov and slightly better unit in overall.

    In medieval age Mounted Warriors upgrade to Knights, which is far better then Medieval Infantry, of course it means you would have to choose Chivalry as a research target, while Celts can choose to bypass it.

    The cheaper temples would provide hapiness and large sentry nets for incoming attacks...
    The commercial traits could mean better productive towns for Iroq, plus the mounted warrior is cheaper.

    As for horses, from experience they are easier to find then iron, but of course this is relative.

    It´s a hard choice no doubt.
     
  5. Spoonwood

    Spoonwood Grand Philosopher

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    I think del62 asks this question as he wants to do well in that gauntlet. For an ancient age conquest game it does seem a toss up. But, I will say this... the Iroquois hands down come as having more research potential. In the same set of hands, they *will* research better and eventually produce more. That might seem irrelevant with respect to an ancient age conquest, but that's a consequence of the commercial trait. The level of corruption can matter on higher levels even for an ancient age conquest to some extent. On lower levels, having only a defense of 1 doesn't matter so much since you won't get attacked so much. On higher levels, the mounted warriors lack of attack would seem to get compensated for by having reduced corruption. Therefore, as a general rule, I conclude the Iroquois as better.

    The 100k game provides the exception to the rule, and for lower level 20k games I'd also pick the Celts. For higher level 20k games I'll pick the Iroquois since having Alphabet to start works out as important.
     
  6. Calis

    Calis on time

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    For short games, where you won't get much past the AA, the Celts are the better choice for me. In longer games, where you probably will use later units, the Iroquios have the advantage that they can upgrade their units to knights/cavs and do not have to build these units from scratch. Furthermore (as mentioned above already), if you really need research, the Iroquios have an advantage here.

    I like both civs very much, though.
     
  7. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    I find that I never get any CS units to speak of when I play as Celts and they are downgraded by the upgrade. (my research path tends to the slingshot so Iron working isn't in the first while) I've just never gotten into them even though I have a gorgeous leaderhead that I use... just not into them :lol:

    I love the Iro though. I had to break my addiction to them by playing others.
     
  8. Stratagist IV

    Stratagist IV Ex virtute honos

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    I would choose the Celts. Personally I prefer Gallic Swords over MW due to their staying power on the battlefield.

    Much like historical Celts, they function much better when charging out of a forest/hill/mountain spot where they are safe across the plains to attack. MW on a mountain is more vulnerable than GS on hills. To me, MW = 30 shields and disposable while GS = 40 shields and here to stay. Also the ability to upgrade warriors to GS is nice, I tend to use that to get a wave of reinforcements after a GS gives me a golden age and I have the cash to spare.

    I also think that religious helps with the cost of GS in a way, with the cheaper temples allowing for more citizens. Also by the time I really get into AA wars with gallic swords, its time to switch governments so I also appreciate that.

    To me, the Iroquois are overrated.
     
  9. bigFRANK

    bigFRANK Warlord

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    I would go with the Celts for a quick win, the longer the game runs the less well the Celts do.
     
  10. Hellfiredoom

    Hellfiredoom Warlord

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    I'm a die hard Celtic fan for all the reasons stated above, but have been thinking of trying the Iroquois for some time now. Having more productive cities later in the game is very attractive, but I just couldn't bare losing those awesome GS. Plus pop-rushing cheap temples in newly conquered cities for battleground control is a favorite tactic.

    But reading the above posts, it never occured to me that MWs upgrade to Knights/Cavs. I mean, I guess I just didn't think about it that hard. :mischief: Knowing that now, my next game will be as the Iroquois.
     
  11. GamezRule

    GamezRule Inconceivable!

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    MW to knights are a total waste. You get more value out of two MW then you do a single night.
     
  12. Hellfiredoom

    Hellfiredoom Warlord

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    Maybe. But I definitely get more value from 2 Knights than I do 2 MWs.
     
  13. CELTICEMPIRE

    CELTICEMPIRE Zulu Conqueror

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    in vanilla the Iriquois are more powerful because there are no Ancient Cavalry to be better than MWs, and the traits are better for my playing style. Exp/Rel is better than Agri/Com in my book.
     
  14. Stratagist IV

    Stratagist IV Ex virtute honos

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    Celts are Agri/Rel... but I agree, I don't really like the Iroquois trait combo
     
  15. ChaosArbiter

    ChaosArbiter King

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    The Iroquois, in Vanilla/PtW, are Exp and Rel; in Conquests, they are Agricultural Commercial. That is why CELTICEMPIRE referred to the Vanilla Iroquois fitting his playstyle better (he likes the trait combo better).
     
  16. del62

    del62 Deity

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    For my style I like the traits of the Irioquois of c3C especially on higher levels where huts matter less, and starting techs more.
     
  17. Hellfiredoom

    Hellfiredoom Warlord

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    Update: I'm halfway thru my first Iro game and already facing two changes that make me miss the Celts. First is without cheap temples and quick culture in the early game, flips are more problematic in captured towns (I prefer to capture/hold, and starve down). Second, MWs are squishy. I didn't think the loss of 1 defense point (as compared to GS 3/2/2) would make much of a difference, but my units are getting caught in enemy territory and I'm losing more than I'd like. I'll probably move back to Celts after this game, but will wait until finishing this game before making a decision.
     
  18. CELTICEMPIRE

    CELTICEMPIRE Zulu Conqueror

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    I guess the Celts are better in C3C.
    In vanilla I used Iriquois all the time and this was my strategy:
    -use scout to find horses, huts, and other Civs to attack.
    -build temples for culture
    -create hordes of MWs
    -attack with the hordes
    this will work till chivalry is common knowledge

    sadly this is not as effecive in C3C as the MW is outclassed by both the Ancient Cavalry and the Gallic warrior. Even with all this the AI uses the Iriquois remarkably well.
     
  19. Divaythsarmour

    Divaythsarmour Adventurer

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    I agree that both are the strongest civs for early warfare. I like playing both of them. IMO the Celtics are stronger in PTW. They can earn faster promotions and more GLs with militaristic and build cheaper temples to keep the cities from flipping back again.
     
  20. Richie0

    Richie0 Warlord

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    if i have iron, the celts.

    if i have horses, or horses and iron, the iroquois

    if i have nothing, the iroquois.
     

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