The Celts

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Gazebo, Aug 3, 2015.

  1. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    You know you get faith for killing stuff right? You can get a religion without even building shrines. Research mining first and slaughter your opponents while they still have warriors. Bring in your own horsemen to help (just make sure that the Pict gets the killing blow). You might need ranged units to help take a capital, though it can be done with enough Pictish warriors. Other cities collapse easily. If you take a pantheon that provides science, you can reach mathematics quickly to get catapults or skirmishers
     
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  2. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I definitely see your point about founding while knocking out two neighbors. I can see easily doing so before horsemen even show up in the case of one neighbor, but I'm not sure thant's going to give you a threshold number of cties to ensure Reform.
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Absolutely, but farming units and taking cities is quite far from being the same thing. If you want to conquer cities you want to manipulate the AI into building as few units as possible.


    Either way, this is imho an incredibly limiting way to force a civ to play. Do you others believe that it makes for a fun civ or are you just bringing it up as a possibility?
     
  4. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I always found very easily when I attack others. I suppose could farm them more but I usually just run over my neighbors and pick up enough faith from doing so. The hard part is staying ahead when your long term economy isn't very good.
    Its a fine strategy, the problem is that its the Celts' only strategy right now

    For a long time the Celts were a great tradition civ, early culture snowballed so well, but the culture changes killed this. She also had a great border blob Tradition-Authority mix option. Playing tall works out pretty well because there are religious beliefs that don't require spreading and favor tall. With a science pantheon its not hard to get Basil either. I haven't tried this or Dagda lately, so maybe those still work, but I'm skeptical. The Celts aren't in a good spot in terms of variety (or AI performance)

    I suggested changing the faith to make it more friendly to peaceful and less forced into early aggression. Its really hard not to pick Authority when you already have so much incentive to kill; I really think this is a problem, we can add some faith per kill to the Morrigan pantheon if its needed (and this way you can still get faith for kills after Pictish Warriors obsolete)
     
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  5. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I had a crazy idea just now. How about letting the celts spread their religion to other civs normally and then have some sort of combat bonus or other advantage against civs following their religion?

    That way people you spread your religion to could take advantage of your "UA" but still live in fear of getting targeted because of it.
     
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  6. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I actually like how Pictish forces you to play aggressive early game, so i'm against reducing faith-per-kill idea. There is only one civ similar to them - Monty, thats not too much. It also can work very good with Tradition because you build army only in your capital anyway. Delay your cities a bit, and build a Pictish gang, rob anyone who passes by, then build other cities. Nobody told that Tradition should not be aggressive early on
     
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  7. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'll throw an idea out there. What if each pantheon gave a unique buff to the Celidh hall? Other civs cannot build a Celidh hall, so they don't get this portion of the pantheon.

    It also gives a way to let certain pantheons scale better, without increasing the ancient era snowball.
     
  8. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Sounds like an alternative.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Buildings interacting with beliefs like that is unprecedented unless you're just talking about a yield buff. In any case I'm going to push Celts back to +3 faith from UA and monitor it.

    G
     
  10. Workerspam

    Workerspam Prince

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    Much of the discussion trends toward Tradition and Authority; I can vouch for Progress Celts with Rhiannon being crazy fun and potent (playing on Standard/Standard Emperor). Culture, Gold, and Production are high in every city, you can forward settle aggressively, take and raze neighboring cities that encroach areas you want for yourself, and I was usually first or second to found. Very strong early expanders. And Ceilidh provides a surge of culture and happiness right as you hit Medieval.

    The spreading religion aspect is different. I normally just take Zealotry and expect to build Basil to reform, but I have occasionally reformed naturally through sheer size of my civ plus city states. Nothing prevents you from spreading far and wide but I feel there's no need to with the Celts. These druids may want to keep their pantheon for themselves.

    I don't think the Celts need to be pigeon holed as a culture civ or conquering civ. They are versatile. If the default is an aggressive expanding Shoshone type civ with a midgame culture and happiness boost then I'm happy with them.

    Whether they can capitalize on their strengths in the AIs hand is another question. They've seemed mostly middling in my games.
     
  11. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I mean they're described as unique pantheon beliefs.

    Yield buffs are okay, but abilities would be even cooler.
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Unprecedented = no model for it in DLL. Way too intensive to add at this stage.

    Edit: could potentially experiment with a ‘double yields from religion in city’ bonus but no guarantees.


    G
     
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  13. Legen

    Legen King

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    Just to be sure, CrazyG was talking about the beliefs adding something to the UB, like Ancestor Worship does to Councils and Goddess of Protection does for palace/barracks/wall. Not the UB buffing the pantheons.
     
  14. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Here is a rough draft of what I was thinking. All yield buffs to the Celidh Hall, no new functions needed

    Bran gets +5 :c5food:
    Ogma gets +5 :c5science:
    Nuada gets +5 :c5gold: (these three are obvious choices)

    Lugh gets +5 :c5culture:
    Mannan gets +5 :c5production:
    Morrigan gets +5 :c5faith:
    Rhiannon gets +1 :c5food:/:c5production:/:c5gold:/:c5culture:/:c5science:/:c5faith:

    Cernunnos (the forest one) could probably get something as well, but the only unique yields left are :c5happy:,:tourism:, and :c5goldenage:, none of which fit very well.

    That leaves Dagda and Epona unchanged, which I think is alright because they already scale well
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
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  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    We can also give the buildings great general/admiral points, just FYI.

    G
     
  16. Legen

    Legen King

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    I think great musician points makes more sense as a bonus yield for the Ceilidh Hall; great general or admiral points seems more fit for civs like Japan, Carthage or Portugal.
     
  17. doublex55

    doublex55 Prince

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    Could the pantheon give the building more unique effects, like wonders do now? Or is it just yeilds?

    Also, Perhaps Celidiah Hall could get a very strong Wonder-Like effect when you spread your relligion enough to other civs, making it worthwhile despite giving them a strong pantheon.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I didn't mention Great Musicians because they're not possible with the current code base.

    G
     
  19. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I wouldn't leave them out. Just have Morrigan give great general points, Mannan give great admiral points, Dagda give faith, Eponia give :tourism:, and Cernunnos give :c5production:.
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I don't know, 5 great general points or 5 :tourism: per city adds up really quickly. I really think Mannan would benefit from a second economic boost, because its pretty insignificant in the later eras. Obviously it doesn't have to be 5, but I wanted to start simple
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2017

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