I don't usually put a lot of stock in "this civ sux" threads. They tend to use a baseline that measures a civ against overpowered civ's that help a player walk the bases at deity. Moreover, civ is not particularly punishing a player and even with no portfolio of abilities players could acquit themselves well just by exploiting degenerate tactics that the AI avoids.
Having said all that, I want a civ's portfolio to make sense. The pieces should snap together. Been playing China recently, and there seem to be pieces that get in each other's way.
China's inherent UA is to get an extra 10% boost from eurekas and inspirations. This is perfectly fine and indeed I think it pretty well exemplifies what a UA should be: simple, brief, thematic, and distinctive.
Qin's leader ability has him expending builder charges to expedite construction of ancient and classical wonders. Oh, and builders get an extra charge. The design is clever in theory.
Then there's China's unique improvement. Expend a builder charge be expended to throw down walls that (for some reason) generate gold and act as a fort.
Seems like availing oneself of these early game benefits require a lot of inputs at a time when resources are slim. You have a leader ability that requires you to get a builder, then expend that builder's charges to expedite wonder construction (all four charges still leaves you doing 40% of the production the hard way). And at the same time, there's a unique improvement that sucks up builder charges to supposedly provide a line of defense, but only if you build units to man it. Plus, wonder-building requires settling certain types of terrain, maybe having to build out districts (Qin's only actual wonder, Terracotta Army, requires an ecampment).
So, I guess it's safe to say the great wall UI is not worth bothering with in these early eras (other than dropping when you want four GA points). They get better later, but thematically it's a disconnect that Iwould wait to build them until unlocking Flight.
And the leader ability really puts the player on a clock. I guess the question is, how many wonders can a player realistically expect to squeeze out of China? I've missed out on the earliest wonders (Great Bath, Stonehenge) more than once because the act of getting a builder itself is too much of a delay.
I'm always going to want to scout heavily with China to tumble onto goody huts, in a sense of desperate need to tumble onto a free builder. There's also a free builder to be gotten from Fertility Rites, but even for China that might not be the best choice for a pantheon. Maybe if i'm late to the party. Really want to chase that classical golden age for everyone's favorite dedication, Monumentality, which may provide sufficient motivation to drop a solitary great wall, I suppose.
Some thoughts on ways the portfolio could be bolstered, mostly around the UI:
1) Capital starts with a free builder, or unlocks one at some early point (e.g. Code of Laws, or after researching the first tech that has an associated wonder, or at a certain population level).
2) Tiles with great walls can't be entered by barbarians. This would allow the walls to actually provide an early-game defense that reduces the need for building units, rather than requiring. And before anyone gets the urge to point the walls didn't really stop barbarians, don't be that guy. They didn't just spring over them like their horses had go-go-gadget legs. They went around them through tiles without the walls.
3) Great walls don't have to built within a city's borders, but rather can be built within three tiles of a city extend borders in a manner similar to Cree's trade routes. This lets a well-positioned third-ring wall grab a second-ring tile needed to build wonders, letting them save precious cash for builders.
4) Great wall provides a bonus that increases with the passage of eras, so it'll get built early. And maybe can't be built after medieval era.
5) A great wall can be dropped in a jungle, marsh, or forest tile, and harvests the tile when doing so. Save some precious charges.
6) I get the point of Qin's ability aging out (producing builders goes from being an inconvenience to a trifle), but maybe it could at least extend to the medieval era?
I have no idea where China sits in power rankings, as I don't follow such things. Probably ain't too good though, since focusing on wonders as a strat isn't very powerful to begin with. Do you guys experience China in a satisfying way?
Having said all that, I want a civ's portfolio to make sense. The pieces should snap together. Been playing China recently, and there seem to be pieces that get in each other's way.
China's inherent UA is to get an extra 10% boost from eurekas and inspirations. This is perfectly fine and indeed I think it pretty well exemplifies what a UA should be: simple, brief, thematic, and distinctive.
Qin's leader ability has him expending builder charges to expedite construction of ancient and classical wonders. Oh, and builders get an extra charge. The design is clever in theory.
Then there's China's unique improvement. Expend a builder charge be expended to throw down walls that (for some reason) generate gold and act as a fort.
Seems like availing oneself of these early game benefits require a lot of inputs at a time when resources are slim. You have a leader ability that requires you to get a builder, then expend that builder's charges to expedite wonder construction (all four charges still leaves you doing 40% of the production the hard way). And at the same time, there's a unique improvement that sucks up builder charges to supposedly provide a line of defense, but only if you build units to man it. Plus, wonder-building requires settling certain types of terrain, maybe having to build out districts (Qin's only actual wonder, Terracotta Army, requires an ecampment).
So, I guess it's safe to say the great wall UI is not worth bothering with in these early eras (other than dropping when you want four GA points). They get better later, but thematically it's a disconnect that Iwould wait to build them until unlocking Flight.
And the leader ability really puts the player on a clock. I guess the question is, how many wonders can a player realistically expect to squeeze out of China? I've missed out on the earliest wonders (Great Bath, Stonehenge) more than once because the act of getting a builder itself is too much of a delay.
I'm always going to want to scout heavily with China to tumble onto goody huts, in a sense of desperate need to tumble onto a free builder. There's also a free builder to be gotten from Fertility Rites, but even for China that might not be the best choice for a pantheon. Maybe if i'm late to the party. Really want to chase that classical golden age for everyone's favorite dedication, Monumentality, which may provide sufficient motivation to drop a solitary great wall, I suppose.
Some thoughts on ways the portfolio could be bolstered, mostly around the UI:
1) Capital starts with a free builder, or unlocks one at some early point (e.g. Code of Laws, or after researching the first tech that has an associated wonder, or at a certain population level).
2) Tiles with great walls can't be entered by barbarians. This would allow the walls to actually provide an early-game defense that reduces the need for building units, rather than requiring. And before anyone gets the urge to point the walls didn't really stop barbarians, don't be that guy. They didn't just spring over them like their horses had go-go-gadget legs. They went around them through tiles without the walls.
3) Great walls don't have to built within a city's borders, but rather can be built within three tiles of a city extend borders in a manner similar to Cree's trade routes. This lets a well-positioned third-ring wall grab a second-ring tile needed to build wonders, letting them save precious cash for builders.
4) Great wall provides a bonus that increases with the passage of eras, so it'll get built early. And maybe can't be built after medieval era.
5) A great wall can be dropped in a jungle, marsh, or forest tile, and harvests the tile when doing so. Save some precious charges.
6) I get the point of Qin's ability aging out (producing builders goes from being an inconvenience to a trifle), but maybe it could at least extend to the medieval era?
I have no idea where China sits in power rankings, as I don't follow such things. Probably ain't too good though, since focusing on wonders as a strat isn't very powerful to begin with. Do you guys experience China in a satisfying way?
