Hickman888
Prince
China is one of the big players in RFC: DoC, at least when they are able to look past their barbarian and instability problems. This thread is to catalogue all of the community's thoughts, ideas and suggestions on everything China. I'm going to open this thread with my experiences on playing through the Chinese UHV on Regent/Normal.
Historical Goals:
1.) Control four Confucian and three Taoist Cathedrals by 1000 AD. Fantastic goal. Feels very thematic for China to be constructing Confucian and Taoist temples and Cathedrals in all of their cities. I did complete this goal in 800 AD, 20 turns early, so I think there is room to bump up the required Taoist Cathedrals to four, to make it a little more challenging. Also, on the topic of Cathedrals, I would like to comment that they have lost their
from Incense that they previously had in v1.17. This means that constructing a Cathedral for a non-state religion only offers 2 priest slots, and +50% 
. For all the temples and 
that need to be invested in order to construct a Cathedral, I would like to see Cathedrals be given a little bit of a buff, even for non-state religions. Maybe a base +1 ? Maybe they could give a small buff to the Religious civic that is currently being ran? (ie +10% building construction for Clergy, +25% 
generation for Monasticism) Just some ideas.
2.) Be the first to discover Compass, Paper, Gunpowder and Printing. Another great and challenging goal. (TBH I like all of China's UHV goals.) From what I remember in v1.17, I had to run a Golden Age, as well as bulb a couple of Great Scientists, in order to take the tech lead to insure I got Compass and Paper in time. Byzantium and the Vikings were hot contenders for those techs in v1.17. In my latest playthrough on the big map, I think I used two Great Scientists to bulb, but that ended up not being necessary. I didn't run my first Golden Age until after Paper/Compass, either. I know tech rate is currently a WIP at the moment, so just wanted to give my experience.
3.) Experience four golden ages by 1800 AD. In my experience, you will turn your focus to this goal in the late Classical, Medieval and Renaissance era. Prior to that, your main goals are focused on barbarians, expansion and building cathedrals. So I like this goal, as it gives you and your cities something to focus on (managing specialists) after you have already built most of your infrastructure. Another difference I noticed is that in v1.17, I remember my tech lead petering out to the Europeans in the late Medieval/early Renaissance. In the current version, my tech lead remained strong, and I teched my way to Economics for the free Great Merchant in the mid 13th century. If I didn't win the game at that point, I easily could have gone on to get the Great Scientist from Scientific Method. So I ended up winning my game "early", with over a 100 turns to spare until the 1800 AD deadline. To contrast, in 1.17, I remember winning China in the 17th or 16th centuries, with much less time to spare. In the big map, I think having more cities equals having more specialists equals having more Great People. As it stands, the Chinese game is already fairly long and full of things to do (my video until 1350 AD is 8 hours long!), so I don't think it's too much of a problem that China ends up winning so early.
But if you are looking for a goal that will take the Chinese player through to the 19th century or beyond, which I'm also not opposed to, I think we are going to need an additional goal. I also hesitate to suggest just making the goal "experience Five Golden Ages", because at that point, you would just be micromanaging specialists, building Wealth, dealing with minimal foreign intervention, and clicking end turn. It wouldn't be too engaging. However, I remember at one point I suggested a wonder for China that would increase their Golden Age length for every vassal acquired, or something similar. Leoreth didn't like the idea, because he didn't want to make constructing a wonder a necessity for completing a goal. Fair enough. However, I think if we were to introduce a wonder like that, and the requirement were raised to 5 Golden Ages, the player would still have the turns and time necessary to make 5 Golden Ages happen, but would also have a pathway to cut down on the amount of turns necessary to win. Especially if this wonder is available in the Classical era, before the player usually gets started on the Golden Ages. This would also encourage China taking vassals of its neighbors, which I think is historical behavior.
Barbarians/Mongolians:
The northern steppe Horse Archers are currently in a mostly balanced state, but I think there is room to up their frequency a bit in the late Classical/early Medieval eras. By this point, the player has built the Great Wall, and a few more barbarians to the north wouldn't be too overbearing. However, for other regions, I did notice very minimal barbarian Tibetan swordsmen, as well as barbarian War Elephants from Burma, whereas in v1.17 I have distinct memories of both of those regions being problem areas for me. I think barbarian presence in both those regions can be increased, at least until the spawn of Tibet and Burma.
The AI Mongolians also need some assistance. Again, this may be related to tech speed, as I researched Gunpowder (and Firelancers) in the early 9th century, thus giving me plenty of time to build a massive army of Firelancers to counter the Mongolians. In v1.17, I remember researching Gunpowder in the early 11th century, thus giving me much less time to train Firelancers. Even still, the AI Mongolians could certainly stand to spawn in with more military, to be more menacing, as they struggle to conquer even AI or even independent China. I think an additional 6-10 Keshik would be good. Also, in 1.17, a road would automatically be built between Mongolia and Northern China. This free road is currently missing on the big map, which would help the Mongolians more quickly move in their military to threaten China.
Playing as civilizations other than China, I've noticed AI China collapsing a lot circa 800-200 BC.
On the topic of tech speed and modifiers, I do just want to mention that civilizations like China, Egypt and India are ancient era civilizations with rich historical territories, and poor modifiers, to help counteract the bonuses that that rich land offers. China and India also get access to a few wonders, (ie Forbidden Palace and Nalanda University) that help them stay economically competitive in the mid-game. However, I wonder if a system of dynamic modifiers wouldn't be worth exploring, which I think is especially relevant for a civilization like China. We want these civilizations to stay relevant even in the late game, but a big problem inherent in 4X games is that oftentimes the best way to expand your economic base, is to expand your territory. I think introducing a system of dynamic modifiers would go a long way in helping these older civilizations keep up, without necessitating that they invade all their neighbors. But I know that would be a big system change, so I'll leave it at that.
China:
Historical Goals:
1.) Control four Confucian and three Taoist Cathedrals by 1000 AD. Fantastic goal. Feels very thematic for China to be constructing Confucian and Taoist temples and Cathedrals in all of their cities. I did complete this goal in 800 AD, 20 turns early, so I think there is room to bump up the required Taoist Cathedrals to four, to make it a little more challenging. Also, on the topic of Cathedrals, I would like to comment that they have lost their
from Incense that they previously had in v1.17. This means that constructing a Cathedral for a non-state religion only offers 2 priest slots, and +50% . For all the temples and that need to be invested in order to construct a Cathedral, I would like to see Cathedrals be given a little bit of a buff, even for non-state religions. Maybe a base +1 ? Maybe they could give a small buff to the Religious civic that is currently being ran? (ie +10% building construction for Clergy, +25% generation for Monasticism) Just some ideas.2.) Be the first to discover Compass, Paper, Gunpowder and Printing. Another great and challenging goal. (TBH I like all of China's UHV goals.) From what I remember in v1.17, I had to run a Golden Age, as well as bulb a couple of Great Scientists, in order to take the tech lead to insure I got Compass and Paper in time. Byzantium and the Vikings were hot contenders for those techs in v1.17. In my latest playthrough on the big map, I think I used two Great Scientists to bulb, but that ended up not being necessary. I didn't run my first Golden Age until after Paper/Compass, either. I know tech rate is currently a WIP at the moment, so just wanted to give my experience.
3.) Experience four golden ages by 1800 AD. In my experience, you will turn your focus to this goal in the late Classical, Medieval and Renaissance era. Prior to that, your main goals are focused on barbarians, expansion and building cathedrals. So I like this goal, as it gives you and your cities something to focus on (managing specialists) after you have already built most of your infrastructure. Another difference I noticed is that in v1.17, I remember my tech lead petering out to the Europeans in the late Medieval/early Renaissance. In the current version, my tech lead remained strong, and I teched my way to Economics for the free Great Merchant in the mid 13th century. If I didn't win the game at that point, I easily could have gone on to get the Great Scientist from Scientific Method. So I ended up winning my game "early", with over a 100 turns to spare until the 1800 AD deadline. To contrast, in 1.17, I remember winning China in the 17th or 16th centuries, with much less time to spare. In the big map, I think having more cities equals having more specialists equals having more Great People. As it stands, the Chinese game is already fairly long and full of things to do (my video until 1350 AD is 8 hours long!), so I don't think it's too much of a problem that China ends up winning so early.
But if you are looking for a goal that will take the Chinese player through to the 19th century or beyond, which I'm also not opposed to, I think we are going to need an additional goal. I also hesitate to suggest just making the goal "experience Five Golden Ages", because at that point, you would just be micromanaging specialists, building Wealth, dealing with minimal foreign intervention, and clicking end turn. It wouldn't be too engaging. However, I remember at one point I suggested a wonder for China that would increase their Golden Age length for every vassal acquired, or something similar. Leoreth didn't like the idea, because he didn't want to make constructing a wonder a necessity for completing a goal. Fair enough. However, I think if we were to introduce a wonder like that, and the requirement were raised to 5 Golden Ages, the player would still have the turns and time necessary to make 5 Golden Ages happen, but would also have a pathway to cut down on the amount of turns necessary to win. Especially if this wonder is available in the Classical era, before the player usually gets started on the Golden Ages. This would also encourage China taking vassals of its neighbors, which I think is historical behavior.
Barbarians/Mongolians:
The northern steppe Horse Archers are currently in a mostly balanced state, but I think there is room to up their frequency a bit in the late Classical/early Medieval eras. By this point, the player has built the Great Wall, and a few more barbarians to the north wouldn't be too overbearing. However, for other regions, I did notice very minimal barbarian Tibetan swordsmen, as well as barbarian War Elephants from Burma, whereas in v1.17 I have distinct memories of both of those regions being problem areas for me. I think barbarian presence in both those regions can be increased, at least until the spawn of Tibet and Burma.
The AI Mongolians also need some assistance. Again, this may be related to tech speed, as I researched Gunpowder (and Firelancers) in the early 9th century, thus giving me plenty of time to build a massive army of Firelancers to counter the Mongolians. In v1.17, I remember researching Gunpowder in the early 11th century, thus giving me much less time to train Firelancers. Even still, the AI Mongolians could certainly stand to spawn in with more military, to be more menacing, as they struggle to conquer even AI or even independent China. I think an additional 6-10 Keshik would be good. Also, in 1.17, a road would automatically be built between Mongolia and Northern China. This free road is currently missing on the big map, which would help the Mongolians more quickly move in their military to threaten China.
Playing as civilizations other than China, I've noticed AI China collapsing a lot circa 800-200 BC.
Tech Speed:
The tech rate in the Ancient and Classical eras feels balanced. It's only really in the late Medieval era that I'm able to pull very ahead of the competition. (I researched Logistics in 1210 AD.) I know entering the Renaissance era greatly increases the "+Tech spread" costs associated with technologies. Maybe this cost should be drastically increased for entering the era so early?On the topic of tech speed and modifiers, I do just want to mention that civilizations like China, Egypt and India are ancient era civilizations with rich historical territories, and poor modifiers, to help counteract the bonuses that that rich land offers. China and India also get access to a few wonders, (ie Forbidden Palace and Nalanda University) that help them stay economically competitive in the mid-game. However, I wonder if a system of dynamic modifiers wouldn't be worth exploring, which I think is especially relevant for a civilization like China. We want these civilizations to stay relevant even in the late game, but a big problem inherent in 4X games is that oftentimes the best way to expand your economic base, is to expand your territory. I think introducing a system of dynamic modifiers would go a long way in helping these older civilizations keep up, without necessitating that they invade all their neighbors. But I know that would be a big system change, so I'll leave it at that.
Miscellaneous:
- I enjoyed having the luxury of running Despotism, rather than Monarchy, for the duration of the Chinese game. It felt much more thematic, and wasn't possible in v1.17. This is due to the increase of luxury resources, and the buildings associated with them.
- China's Unique Units and Unique Building, and Unique Ability are all perfect. No complaints there.
- The Porcelain Tower gives +1
to Statesmen. Isolationism does as well. With both of these being unlocked in the late Medieval/early Renaissance, it's likely the Chinese player will utilize both of these/ However, they don't stack to give +2 to Statesmen.I think the Porcelain Tower needs a new ability, to replace its Statesmen buff?
