Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Mar 16, 2018.
Actually I like the idea that China's UP is nothing.
I don't . And, like it was mentioned previously, this is the equivalent of giving it an extra 33% growth factor (modifier).
But the final call is Leoreth's, so I am going to give it a try . Who knows, maybe it'll be better this way. China getting an early advantage and trying to find any and every way to keep it knowing it won't be able to regain it later sounds fun too.
Long time no see, I am back! And now I am an editor of www.chuapp.com the Chinese game media, I am going to write an article for RFC & DoC!
About this new UP, it is reasonable, maybe even powerful than before, for growth is crucial.
Started a new M/N 3000 BC Chinese. The main problem is happiness before calendar and early commerce. Again, I must do some evil trick:
I founded Luoyang-Shanghai-Chengdu, and Chittagong, then Myitkyna on the rainforest gold hill on turn 64 (10 turns after India spawn), gift to India, declare war, razed it, so my workers can mine it long before bloomery (still need to build road to connect to capital though).
This gold helped a lot, then I switched to monarchy after whipping taixue. I went for literature so I can trade tech with India and others. I'll see how well can I do in this game.
Hey, great to see you back. I hope you're going to be around more often from now again.
And congratulations to your new role as editor! Let me know if when the article is ready, I will try to read it via Google translate. Also let me know in case I can help you in any way with it.
Well, I'd like to ask some question:
1. What's your ideal form for a RFC-like history simulation game or mod?
2. What features in RFC do you want to improve most, but couldn't do it because of the limit of CIV4 system?
3. If there is no limit in program, what do you want to add to DoC most for now?
Back to Chinese UP. In my opinion, because the land is so rich and it shouldn't be nerfed(unless we add some flood event in all those river tiles), with the right strategy, the Chinese would grow strong anyway even without an UP. So I think it could be this:
The Power of Resurrection: Upon collapsing, human player gets one city and maybe a small army in core or historical area instead, the inflation is cleared, so the player could get a fresh start and reunite China. AI China is more likely to respawn and rebel, and each time its tech rate/production rate is improved to the average of the time. (Maybe the tech rate thing could apply to all civs)
In most of our game, we don't collapse and we march from 3000 BC to victory all the way, this is not historical. Collapse hurts, but civilizations grow from it.
This UP could be a huge buff for dumb AI, and nerf for hardcore human Chinese player, and also nerfs any other civ who tries to occupy China.
Are your questions intended to be published as an interview, or do you just want to know more which you can include into your article? If it is the former I will put more thought into how to express myself.
I haven't completely thought it through, but in my plans for new rise and fall rules could cover what you propose as the UP. Part of what I want to do is different ways for a civ to initially spawn, from flips to spawning armies that have to conquer their territory. I am not sure about that yet, but that might as well come into play when a civ collapses, so instead of a random respawn chance you could get a rebel army that has to reconquer its territory, including some resets for over time penalties. I am also considering reverting the human player back to autoplay until such a respawn can happen, which is attractive because I can potentially make stability more punishing then. If something like this is included, it is a very good idea to tie the Chinese UP to it. The ability of Chinese civilization to remain unified and intact despite political collapses and civil wars is indeed one of the unique aspects of its history,
I'd like to make this an interview. No need to be very formal, all our readers are gamer too. Maybe I could ask a couple more:
4. In all time(from past to present), what strategy/simulation games other than Civ do you prefer? Why?
5. Tell us some book/movie/comic/TV series/documentary in which you enjoyed and learned about history and human civilization, from your childhood till present.. I am always interested in this kind of cultural difference.
6. Please share any thought about modding with game developers.
Alright. Let me take some time to answer these questions, I want have the chance to think them through.
Collapse is not supposed to just hurt and let you grow back. Collapse is for the end of one civ so it can be replaced by another. Chinese as one civ never collapsed like the Egyptians and Carthaginians did.
So what'up now? Have to try the Turkic civ right now.
Yes, now that this is finished I may get around to it. I hope it is not too urgent.
My suggestion: Mandate of Heaven; additional happiness per stability level above shaky.
Helps their economy (allows more tiles to be harvested), military (more whipping) and stability (less redface stability penalties).
Max bonus will be 2, so it's not too OP.
Uh, China now has an ok power now. It's essentially a free granary.
Sorry for bringing this old thread up again. I don't know if the Chinese long-term uber-advantage has really been solved by this, but I just dreamed up something that I'd just like to share.
That one could really need a split-up, but not like Tamil/Hindu or Austria/Prussia. Realism Invictus made Southern China a different civ, but that still never sat right with me. For DoC I have seen suggestions that Manchuria (Qing) should be introduced to gobble up the remains of Ming China. That also doesn't feel right: Both solutions take one specific adversary for China as a one-time all-or-nothing challenge. Instead, the split-up should be a recurring theme, not a one-timer.
China has been fractured often into long-lasting empires as large as contemporary European powers had been. Only that these powers would eventually be (re-)unified under one central government (very unlike Europe), only to fall apart a few centuries later along different borders, just to be eventually unified again. Some have described it as a cycle of renewal.
So it would be really cool to introduce a serious chance that China splits into two or three stable parts if the player/AI starts a revolution - basically, traditionalists vs. reformists. The bigger the reform, the bigger the empire, the longer the last split-up has been ago: The larger the chance of a split-up. Think seven warring kingdoms; three kingdoms; five dynasties and ten kingdoms; Jin vs. Song; Qing vs. Taiping; KPC vs. KMT. Sometimes they co-existed for a while and had some sort of truce, sometimes they were feuding with each other for long periods. Sometimes, the insurrection was thrown down in few years/decades. Once one part reconquers the other part(s), China is unified again. Let that happen two or three times during the game, and we have a navel-gazing China instead of a threat for all neighbors.
Conventional warfare between two similar strong sides would of course totally destroy the middle kingdom, so darn it, there'd need to be some extra rules. Cities in non-foreign areas would still lose population upon capture, but only few/cheap buildings, as long as they are just "traded" between rival Chinese forces. So no "total cultural destruction" upon conquest. Hmm, and maybe stacks of units that are clearly in a disadvantage of worse than 1:4 (with all modifiers summed up) could be scripted to simply give up and switch sides when the superior stack attacks. Each side is Chinese, after all.
In short, these internal revolutions would certainly expend soldiers and population (solving China's long-term uber-advantage nicely), but not totally throw China back into the stone age. There is another caveat: Cities in foreign areas wouldn't get those combat benefits in the civil wars. This would certainly discourage excessive out-of-China settlement, not that I have seen it much with the AI.
Sadly, the more I think about it, the more complex the programming seems to make it all possible. Think alone about the UHV alone, as two copies of China would need to share their successes (in research and temple-building), and there is also the threat of abuse through human players (the army would need to be randomly scattered to prevent S/L stationing).
Well, huh. I will dream on...
Don't need to, the OPness of China has already been addressed with a new UP
Thought of a UP that is similar but not equivalent to a passive modifier. Moreover, it is not as one-dimensional.
The Power of Myriads:
Excess Food is added to Production when producing Buildings.
Like the current UP, this UP has effect only when cities are small and growing. If a player uses the extra early Production bonus to build Granaries, it reduces to the current UP. Should the player choose to use the extra Production otherwise, it allows for more flexible and diverse play styles. IMHO current UP is too heavily biased in favor of rapid early expansion. What if one wants to play a Taoist China with small but highly developed cities?
Stopping pop growth whenever prpducing buildings? Not a good idea.
How about this:
The Power of the Myriads:
+1 Production for every 2 Excess Food.
Some ideas (some have already been mentioned):
-Smaller core and historical regions until the industrial or modern or some later era. So imagine on average that when China expands to the borders we usually think of in Civ (takes the coast and the heartland, borders are Tibet to the west, jungle in the south, and steppe/future Mongolia in the north), that is the practical limit in terms of extension, until a much later era. For example, make the core small enough for only 2 cities, maybe Xi'an (to represent Chang'an) and one city in the east (to represent Luoyang). That is your max expansion stability, 2 cities. When you expand out north to Beijing, south to Guangzhou, fill out the rest with Chengdu etc. etc., you've overextended and you go back to "shaky" or neutral. So at least it really discourages China from expanding more and becoming super uber powerful.
-Along those lines, harsher instability modifiers until some later age when they go away. Just make the stability game hard for China (a negative UP, basically). And when China gets unstable, make it likely for a civil war to happen where half or 2/3 of the cities become independent, requiring you to reconquer everything. That would slow down progress and mirror the dissolution and unification and re-dissolution and re-unification that China has historically had (while not introducing new civs like the Manchus, which would just require possibly a lot more work for not a lot commensurate benefit to the game).
-This idea might be a bit too grand, but the idea is that what changed the world order between 1500AD and 1800AD wasn't the "decline" of civilizations like China but rather the super uber OP tech boost of Western Europe. Ming and Qing China did fine. They weren't like crappy versions of the Song and preceding dynasties. It was just that Western Europe went ridiculous with tech so that literally no other region in the world could keep up with them. My feeling is that the more you read about Ming China, it was actually a golden age for China - it just couldn't match the "diamond age" of Western Europe during the same time. So what one might do is take techs from the mid-Renaissance and onwards and make the beaker requirements for those techs to be much higher than they are now. Every civ basically will hit a tech wall when they hit the mid-Renaissance not because they are declining but simply because these techs are inherently that advanced and difficult for pre-industrial societies to discover - except for Western Europe, which would be given some sort of unique science boost advantage here so that they don't struggle more than usual in tech advance here. I don't know how exactly you would do this - maybe a really expensive National Wonder/Project like some "Enlightenment Age" that non-Western European civs would have to build in order to effectively overcome this tech wall (and make it really expensive to build for a Renaissance era civ, but relatively much more reasonable to build in the industrial era once you have factories/banks/universities or something like that) while Western European civs would get this "Enlightenment Age" Wonder/Project automatically once they discover the required techs. For example, maybe the "Enlightenment Age" Wonder/Project gives your entire civ a +200% boost to science (i.e. a 3x boost to science). So even an uber powerful China will suddenly find its tech advances 3 times slower than usual in the mid-Renaissance. Just spitballing and may not be needed at all since for whatever reason, European civs tend to have advanced tech during this era anyway I suppose due to newly spawning civs with high tech like the Netherlands and the huge concentration of civs in Europe with similar religions, encouraging tech trading and causing that region to run ahead with tech anyway. Now that I think of it, giving this inherent advantage to Western Europe feels a lot like the Renaissance(?) mechanic in EU4, if I remember correctly, where if you were a non-European civ, you had to race to make contact with Europe in order to get these Renaissance benefits in order to advance into that age, or something like that. In the version I spitball-ed above, basically you would be disadvantaged until you slowly advance and build factories and universities or something which would allow you to more cheaply build the "Enlightenment Age" Wonder/Project, and also there's no need to meet Europe in order to "trigger" the Renaissance like in EU4. This whole thing wouldn't slow just China but also India and any other big non-Western European regions that have the potential to ahistorically run away with tech. Instead of a civ spawn and flip, like with the Mongols vs. China and the Ottoman Turks vs. the Middle East, it would be a beneficial "tech spawn" to Western European civs.
The civ-specific modifiers in Modifiers.py already account for the differences in tech pace. China's at 120, while Western European civs are at around 80 (HRE's at 100, though). Also, the DLL specifically hardcodes a higher tech cost for China in CvTeam.cpp: +20% in the Medieval Era and +30% in the Renaissance. However, despite these lines of code, if China manages to expand big enough and maintain stability, it can still be technologically at par with the Western nations. Especially if it does not adopt Isolationism (although this only usually happens to the human player as Hongwu's favorite civic is Isolationism) and is aggressive in building up its economic and scientific infrastructure (think cottages and trade routes, then libraries and universities).
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