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The Chopping Imperative

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Velvet glove, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. Bliss

    Bliss Warlord

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    Did you mean +8 shipyard? So basically you are saying that you need huge production for medieval+ cities to become relevant. I think that domestic trade routes should fill this gap by mid to end game but their value doesn't scale well (non-gold wise).
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Settle a medieval+ city and give it a +4 production trade route, take a 6 or 7 charge builder, 3 farms and 4 mines. Force these 4 food farms at first and before you know it you have a 25+ production city.

    Now play to the renaissance and look at how much production your average city makes and you will be surprised that is just fits in nicely.... Petra would take 16 turns, your districts, about 8

    This whole power production is a bit OTT. You need that in your main prod citieswhere you want 50-150 production. If you have that strength everywhere it’s overkill and you end up building for the sake of using production.
     
    Uberfrog likes this.
  3. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    I can confirm as a Germany player that you really don’t need 100+ production in every last city...
    The reality is that 25-50 production isn’t hard to get from a handful of mines or lumbermills. But people forget that you need a nice cluster of farms to skyrocket the population before you shove them off to the mining pits. Pop is what new cities lack more than infrastructure in most cases.
     
    Uberfrog, acluewithout and Victoria like this.
  4. cvb

    cvb Prince

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    And now I can't get the pictures of Saruman's workshops out of my head!

    Maybe we should reintroduce the older game's "foodbox" to visualize the farm effect on pop growth ... :coffee:

    .
     
    Ondolindë and Victoria like this.
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    And at 25 prod, granaries and monuments sort it out nicely, quite likely with a congress bonus for city centres.
     
  6. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    When settling new cities in the late game (for resources) I usually have enough coin to just buy monument/granary/sewers/watermill. Free builder from ancestral hall and gtg. It's buying landtiles that's often the bottleneck.
     
  7. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Tip of the day
    It takes 20-40 culture to grab most tiles. A couple of Kumasi trade routes, moving Pingala into a city or having some pretty parks very very quickly grabs those tiles. Gold is much more valuable.
    You want a pretty chart? It’s been a while
     
    AntSou, Ondolindë, Uberfrog and 2 others like this.
  8. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    Still prefer tradelines boosted through democracy or communism for food and production though with democracy I could send them to the cultural ally.
     
  9. Velvet glove

    Velvet glove Chieftain

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    When you are speaking of farms and population boosts - is this to reach the almighty 10 or what's the reason? I very rarely build farms, they seem a waste... But I tend to pack my cities very close and often am short of good tiles to work. And the captured cities already have farms.

    Culture per tile from the formula thread (10+(6*n)^1.3) should be at lifetime culture of 10, 30, 65, 118, 190, 284, 400... so it is quite a lot past the first few.
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I get this when I use excel
    Farms are used to get to 10, for an SV only however you are in plains you need farms or you will never grow. Growth is so important, not only for the jscience and culture per pop but each pop gives a couple of production.
    upload_2020-1-14_20-49-53.png
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
    AntSou likes this.
  11. Velvet glove

    Velvet glove Chieftain

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    I don't know if the formula is correct but for n = 29 it should be: 10+(6*29)^1.3 = 10+174^1.3= 10+818=828

    Summing for n=0 to 29: ~11,025 culture for a non-Russian city to open all three rings on its own.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Are you sure it is your way and not mine? You are probably right and I am under a misconception.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  13. Velvet glove

    Velvet glove Chieftain

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    That's what the formula says, but a quick test makes it look incorrect and more like 10+6*n^1.3 which is in-between. 487 for the last tile. Needs a proper test, can do tomorrow. 10, 16, 25, 35, 46, 59, 72... according to this formula.
     
  14. Esperr

    Esperr King

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    This is a debate as old as time. The more early the production, the more exponential. Your not just getting an early settler out three turns early, your creating a cascade of stacking benefits. Unless your roleplaying or something there is no reason not to chop all you can except in some wierd corner case. That early forest is way more then just 20 hammers.
     
  15. Velvet glove

    Velvet glove Chieftain

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    Tested and the original formula is correct:
    • 1: 10
    • 2: 20
    • 3: 35 = 10+(6*2)^1.3
    • 4: 52 = 10+(6*3)^1.3
    • 5: 72 = 10+(6*4)^1.3
    This is how much new culture just for that tile. So to get to 2 you need (10+20=30), to get to 3 you need (10+20+35=65), etc.
     
  16. Velvet glove

    Velvet glove Chieftain

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    Yes and no. The exponential part is checked part with the settlers growing in cost and part with the growth cap for each city. For example you settle desert Uluru with your first settler to get 4 culture, 4 faith, but you get zero growth and 2-3 production. In this case 3 turns later is simply 12 culture/faith and 6-9 production that isn't going through the roof because it will take so long to produce a settler or anything meaningful. For a regular city it's less pronounced but still there. So yes, it's exponential in principle but in practice there are limits and other considerations that interfere so it's not just about churning settlers as fast as you can.
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    No but you need a base to balance. No settler = no growth.
    As lily said, if you find a good place for a settler, build another one.
    Balance to a degree is key but an eye on your VC helps too.
    Granaries and monuments
     
  18. pkaem

    pkaem Warlord

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    You can absolutely play without chopping, but "crucial" things are districts too. And having your primary in every of your cities chopped out with a t2 building, 50 turn before this new city would've hard built it wins over a super productive lumbermill at t175.
     
  19. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    I think "roleplay" is an abused term in Civ.

    I mean, some folks want Civ to be more than an isolationist exercise in speeding through the game, so they have to impose their own house rules.

    So, for me, it's like:

    • No +0 districts (which is a roundabout way to curb settling cities just to spam HS's, Campuses, and TD's).
    • No Rationalism.
    • No gifts (except during an aid emergency).
    • No aircraft unless I see an AI deploy them.
    And some other sundry rules.

    Chops are handy, but they are not infinite and have to be used judiciously. I miss lumber mills getting a bonus next to rivers.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2020
  20. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    Yes chopping is a one-off action.

    However, if you manage to chop everything on the map, you get so much benefit that you already won the game.

    If you really wish to do lumber mill you can plant trees in late game.

    However, time is the real one-off thing, no matter how you play at T100 cannot change your game at T50.
     

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