Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by El Justo, Dec 25, 2004.
El Justo, please check your PMs, I wanted to send you a PM.
thanks for the kind words.
we used Rhye's smallish world map w/ the over-sized europe for the regular version map. it seems to work well.
some don't like the terrain gfx but i like them. very easy to look at...
finding which units to add and whether they existed or not was a good chunk of the research (to say the least!). it took quite a while to whiddle down the master list.
i've always said how much i hate devising a tech tree but to be honest, it wasn't as hard as i had imagined it'd be. i mean, hell, there's a butt-load of different unit types and improvements/wonders so they sort of filled it all in for me on their own. bu yeah, i did burn some midnight oil linking it all together.
the civilo entries for the units defintely add some flavor to the game and offer some history lessons as well i learned a bunch just looking them up.
iirc, only the iowa class BBs have the lethal land flag. we wanted to try to avoid the human (or even the AI) stacking sea units and pummelling the be-Jesus out of their enemy locales. same goes for the air units and arty. however, the american heavies (b52s, b1bs, b2s) all have the lethal land flag. all air and sea units have the lethal sea flag. it's just that we found the lethal land flag to be really, really powerful so we took it out of the equation.
there's not really a whole lot to do to prevent Uncle Joe and Chairman Mao from demnading something from you w/in the 1st few turns. one option would be to turn down the AI's aggression level. this may stem the demand for tribute a bit. the US may seem to be undergunned a little from the start but if you take a closer look, you'll see that they do have a force large enough to launch an offensive at 1 or 2 loactions and then you're on your own...
yes, the so-called Security Council nations are the only ones able to build the nukes.
i'm not sure about the ratios for spying but i do know that the AI is really, really active w/ it against me in my personal games. everything from sabotaging production to stealing my military plans
we welcome test reports, too!
The Russian IS 3 on my territory are destroyed. A Russian Skory class DD is sunk by CA Prinz Eugen which become elite. The Russian counter attack is heavy. I lost a M 3 but destroyed 3 IS 3.
The last Russian IS 3 is sunk. 28 Whiskeys are spotted. 1 of them is sunk. I use the same strategy as alst time. let them come and sink them and then retreat out of range.c I sent an army in the fortress just off Berlin, but the Soviet counter attack with three IS 3 and a VDV forces me now to postpone the attack on Berlin.
I attack the invaders with my 3 Panther, one of them became elite. Berlin bombed by artillery.
12 Whiskeys sunk, Hai is elite. But my DE are all damaged and on the way back to the yard.
In the previous turns my first 2 F 86 shot down 2 Russian bomber, now a third was downed by FlaK south of Berlin.
Another 6 Soviet subs sunk. An elite IS 3 kills my elite M 3 defending Dresden, but is killed by one of my M 3 a little later.
Sinking Whiskeys. 2 Panther sent to the rest of the army. Offensive next turn. Russians send a Spetznatz and a BTR 152.
Offensive started. Commencing assault with 3 Panther, 4 105, 5 M 3, 4 infantry and 2 FlaK.
To be continued.
El Justo, I send you a PM tomorrow.
Just to amplify on Vienna being Italian. In most war plans you read about, support for the Austrians will come from the Italian forces as most of Nato will be supporting the fight on German territory. The Germans already have a hard time defending what they have and to add another city on the front line for them is too much of a liability on the production they would get from it. The Italians are a bit "protected" now with Yugoslavia not being with the WP, so can afford to concentrate their forces there for the most part.
Sadly my comp just isn't good enough to play giga maps without massive slowdown.
I totally understand the balance argument, and I'm in total agreement that every country I mentioned should only be capable of tactical nukes(even today, the only nation among the 4 I mentioned even close to real ICBM ability is Israel, and I'm pretty sure that was a recent development). But my response to questions of balance would be as follows:
Israel: The Arabs, their much larger and hostile neighbor can autoproduce Chem Warheads from Baghdad.
India: Completely unaligned which makes them a huge target, and with a nuke producing neighbor directly to their north(and potentially to their west, if the IAP get bombs).
I/A/P: The share a border with the WMD producing Arabs, Soviets, and Chinese(and hopefully India). Enough said.
South Africa: I admit that this would only be a gesture to historical accuracy since their only rival is Central Africa, one of the weakest positions in the game. Since they got nukes relatively late in the era(and then gave them up even) I'd agree that this is really low priority.
Oh wow, I never knew the game had a hardcoded cap for units and buildings. Oh well, you've done incredible work with what you have.
Yup, I agree with your historical analysis.
I know it is seriously being looked at.
I did not know about South Africa's program. Do you know if/when they got nukes functioning, and when they shelved the project?
Of all the resources about it on the internet, I've found this to be the best timetable of their nuclear program: Timeline of South African nuclear weapons development. There isn't any exact date that can be given because the RSA government never was real talkative or open about their capabilities, even after they finally came clean that they had manufactured these weapons. The general consensus is that their first deployable weapon was made sometime in 1982, 3 years after the infamous Vela Incident which is believed to have been a joint South African/Israeli nuclear test. They built 6 bombs, each of them were slightly stronger than the nuke used on Hiroshima. 90 or 91(again, exact dates are either classified or unknown by anyone in the west) was when they dismantled them, and they signed the NPT Treaty soon after.
Are you sure? I'm playing the 1950 huge now and none of my cities can build workers. I've successfully built the public works wonder which has auto-produced a couple of workers for me but none of my cities show workers in the build menu. Is this a bug, or do I need to research something else to unlock manual worker production?
Germany had also a kind of nuclear program, which was cancelled after Strauß was no longer minister of defence. Also they had some nuclear weapons (Pershing I, Lance) as carriers but no warhead. Also German bombers still train the nuclear role. In the case the US will give the warheads to Germany do deliver them. So I think for all nations a tactical nuke plant would be good and still within the historical parameters.
re: the nuclear capabilities
good points all...especially PriestofDiscord
i do not think that the middle-tiered civis should be able to have nukes until later on in the game (if 'atall). i acknowledge that the mentioned nations did indeed have nuclear programs but they all came relatively late compared to the big civis.
i'll look into finding a way to maybe allow these middle-tiered civis to be able to autoproduce IRBMs late in the game.
hmm...it's possible i did not flag them as buildable. i shall look again at it. thanks.
also, we'd love to read your reports on the Huge map b/c we haven't seen a whole lot of testing on this hog.
I started up a new game since the one I was playing locked up. I went through and unchecked any 'immobile' flags on any land units that could be loaded.(Although, I do not know if that was causing the lockups or not).
I made a few tweaks for my game, they are as follows:
Increased Air Defense numbers for units: ships and land based flak and SAMs. Pretty much all numbers are 10x their original number. This is because I read in another thread, and confirmed it myself, that the numbers in the editor for air defense, are only equal to 1/10 their power ingame.
Increased bombardment power for naval ships. I felt alot of the ships were too weak in their bombardment when reviewing their real life weapons.
All battleships and gun equipped cruisers (not missile cruisers), have the blitz option to best represent the large amount of ordinance they carry and also to represent 'Gun Strike' missions:the ship stays on location and bombards a target (or targets) for an extended amount of time. A side effect of this is, if you are playing against NATO, you either run away from their battleships, or make it a priority to sink them. Either way, I feel this possibly adds a tactical element.
So, I start playing as WP again, and as before, on demigod level with max aggression.This is a challenging postion I feel. I am surrounded by NATO countries, and if I overstep my own borders in a war with one of 'em, I am at war with all of 'em. The very first move I mobilize my artillery, armor and bombers to prepare to strike Munich. Turn 2 I take Munich using combined arms with a few losses. Combined arms is a must, other wise you will lose units faster than you can produce them. The war wages for some turns and then peace is declared. Over the years I destroy the German cities of Stuttgart and Hannover, and the Scandinavian cities of Helsinki and Oulu. I do this for three reasons:
1.To give my border cities more land for shield and food production.
2.To create a larger buffer zone between my cities and the NATO cities.
3.To stretch out NATO air cover, which would be in direct relation to the above mentioned buffer zones.
The effects of the increased Air Defense numbers are noticeable. I have seen my ships and land based flak units shoot down planes more frequently than before, while maintaining a good balance so far by not being able to destroy every attacking aircraft.
The increased bombardment strength has really given my navy, and the other navies some more muscle. I did not add nor take away any of the default "lethal land" or "lethal sea" bombardment flags that El Justo setup in this scenario. So, even though the bombarding ships are more powerful, most countries still have to send in land units to finish of their targeted enemy's units, unless of course, you are bombarding other ships.
I probably won't be giving a play by play report this time around, but I'll try to report updates now and then, and if anything of signifigance happens (bugs, unexpected AI behaviour, etc).
On Christmas Eve 1952 West German troops conquered finally Berlin. Over 7 years after the fall of the capital, Berlin was liberated. The National Anthem is played in the Bundestag and if Christmas Eve wasnt already a holiday it were now. However the price was high: 5 M 3 and 3 infantries cost the recapture of the town. Further 3 Panther, 12 M 3, an infantry and 4 artillery additional 2 FlaK were necessary to take the capital. This was really risky, since the defence lines in the south had to be abandoned to bring more troops to the front.
So to have only 3 PzKw V Panther as offensive forces is really just enough to defend and to make small offensive. But more than 2 towns are not realistic to take and hold.
The Fleet is retreating via North Sea to get repairs.
Surprisingly not Berlin, but Dresden was target of the Soviet offensive. A BTR 152 was destroyed, another damaged by no losses among the infantry.
Production: SS Hai (type XXI), 4 M 3
The fleet arrived home waters and goes into yard next turn.
All invaders are now dead. Also a heavily damaged IS 3 was destroyed at the border as well as a field gun and a BTR 152. I used M 3 to do this job and then retreat at once. Only the BTR was destroyed by a Dutch infantry.
SE- Asia makes peace with USSR!
Peace did not last long. As Arabia attacked Israel ww4 broke out! I lost a M 3 but 2 IS 3 and a VDV were destroyed, another destroyed by an allied M 4. However 10 enemy units are now in my territory as I dont have a strong defence line only in the South but not in the east as there is only a single fortress.
My Naval OoB:
CVL Karel Doormann
CA Prinz Eugen
DD Z 1, Z 2 (Fletcher class, Z 3 just ready in Kiel.)
DE Scharnhorst, Gneisenau, Hipper, Scheer, Brommy, Raule
SS Hai, Hecht, Wilhelm Bauer, U 1, U 2, U 3
I will now attack the enemy with artillery and then try to destroy them with my forces.
Done. All enemies (7 IS 3 and 3 infantry) were destroyed by my forces, only an infantry didnt survive. Therefore all my Panther are elite.
At sea 4 Whiskeys are now on eternal patrol. No losses.
2 infantries are lost to the invading Soviets. Again 10 IS 3 came over the border. Now I dont have so many Panther
The first of the invading tanks with only 1 HP left is destroyed. But the 9 other tanks are another topic
I decided only to bomb the enemy and to abandon most of the border fortresses in order to defend the cities. It is a danger but who defends all defends nothing.
Another Whiskey is down.
I have luck. Several damaged IS 3 retreat. But in the North near Kiel new forces crossed the border. Another IS 3 is destroyed by an Italian Sherman.
I bomb at first the enemies inside Germany. Also a damaged IS 3 at the border is destroyed. Then I send my still damaged Panther to the front. They destroy 3 IS 3 and a corps is generated. Next turn I will fill in my Panther. Until then I only defend key locations. I do not have so many units.
I feel the lack of offensive units. Without the Panther I would be lost. I am in a strong defence position without nearly no ability to go into the offensive. The allies are no big help at this moment.
An infantry lost. Also an Italian M 4 was destroyed. I think this time I can destroy all 4 Soviet units on my territory.
The Soviets are beaten. No enemy forces in my territory.
The Soviets attack my only light defended VP position near Kiel. Only a M 3 and an infantry defending. They are beaten but their bravery must be told. 4 IS 3 are destroyed. A German Alamo.
The 3 units at this location are attacked by my Corps and destroyed. This position is mine again.
The Soviets ask fo peace and I agree. But they have to pay 400 bucks reparation.
Peace reigns again.
i was unable to see how this method worked over the long haul so i'm curious to see how it works for you. could you please update us as you progress?
also, i had forgot to mention that all of the immobile flags were removed for the foot units in v1.51. there was one unit in particular that had a possible conflict: the Paramilitary Infantry; as it had both the 'Load' flag (for the AI offense-defense flags to be enabled) and the 'Defense' flag. this is what may have caused the lock-up (ie the AI trying to load these units).
it seems you're now feeling some strain in defending German soil.
man, the RNG really likes you! good job on the Corps unit. they are like a God-send.
erinnern sie sich an den Alamo!
I am at war with China for a few turns, but now WP declared war on them. Fine! The next war will not see such a fight. Also because I am now producing M 48 MBT. Finally. But it will take a few years until I can launch great offensives.
El Justo, I was again lucky. Really lucky. The last game I played not on demigod with only moderate agressiveness, but now... However this corps I now have came too late to see decisive action. And now with the M 48 I am in a postion to cope the enemy. I also have now built fortresses at the border- with M 113 now (peu à peu modernized M 3).
P.S.: What is RNG?
RNG=random number generator
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