The Concepts of Eastern and Western Europe

[gay_Aleks]

Poland cannot into Holy Roman Empire.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

That's true, but the huge swaths of territories that Poland took from Prussia were quite de-Germanized and polonized after WWII. Besides, modern Poland is largely a political continuation of the Poland from inter-war period no? You guys even had this long line of exiled presidents and what not that took over when the Warsaw Pact fell apart.

 

[Domen]

Also to the same extent modern Poland is a political continuation of the Piast Dynasty Poland, etc.

BTW - ywhtptgtfo where are you from?

Because your nick is trollish, your posts are trollish, I want to know if your country is also trollish.

 

[Domen]

Poland cannot into Holy Roman Empire.

But Bulgaria can into both Byzantine Theme, Ottoman Pashalik, Russian protectorate and Nazi Germany's faithful client state. You are versatile.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Ironically, the game's decisions on tech groups and relative strengths of nations are heavily influenced by more recent historical events... Namely the locations of the former great powers of Europe and the iron curtain which came later.

Totally. One example would be Austria which historicaly was a rich place (Wiena, salt mines, etc.) but the military bonuses it gets in the game are plane ridiculous. But the purpose of higher possibility of replaying the historical outcome is quite clear...

Poland starts sucking pretty bad in the 1500s if it doesn't westernize... which it won't if it's not human-controlled.

I think Poland is actually bit better in the game then Hungary which I have just recently played and managed to make it by late 1600 into technological superior to any western power without westernisation ....

Poland cannot into Holy Roman Empire.

Greater Poland seemed to be part of HRE but as a whole Poland has managed to stay out of it. And if I remember corectly even Hungary at one point has become vasal of HRE for short time...

 

[Domen]

Greater Poland seemed to be part of HRE

No it was Silesia Poland and Pomerania Poland, since a certain point in time.

Greater Poland was never part of the HRE, AFAIK.

Although in a certain period of time Polish Dukes were briefly paying tribute from lands located west of the Warta River.

"Part of the HRE" is in fact a rather vague definition.

For example when exactly did Czechia / Bohemia become part of the HRE ???

IIRC, there is no general consensus on when did it become part of the HRE.

And if I remember corectly even Hungary at one point has become vasal of HRE for short time...

Those vassal-thingies are very complicated. That was changing frequently.

For example Republics of Novgorod and Pskov were vassals of Poland at one point. So was Moldavia - in this case for a longer time.

The Principality of Rugia was vassal of Poland in the 1100s, but probably only from its continental territories. The island itself was vassal of Denmark.

Moreover - Polish Duke Bolesław Krzywousty was at some point paying tribute "from the land of Rugians" to the Emperor.

It means that Rugians were vassals of Poland, but at the same time Poland recognized also some sort of sovereignity of the HRE over them.

So as you can see, one place / realm / entity can be vassals of several different monarchs at the same time.

===========================================

But then just paying tribute - i.e. being only a tributary state - is not the same as being a vassal state.

So the Principality of the Rugians was a vassal state of Poland, rather than of the HRE.

And tribute paid "from the Rugians" by Poland to the HRE, was a payment in exchange for Emperor's recognition of Polish sovereignity over Rugians.

It was not a payment indicating Emperor's own desire to extend his own sovereignity over them.

It was rather: "Ok, Poland, I will recognize your sovereignity over Rugians, but pay me $$$ in exchange for my recognition of your zone of influence."

 

[Domen]

Any idea why entire Germany is labelled as being in the same part of Europe ??? It seems that the boundary should go right through Germany:

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/Programs/ES/BPEA/2001_2_bpea_papers/2001b_bpea_burda.pdf

 

[Domen]

And also such a map of Germany in 1991:

In 1991 entire former East Germany (excluding West Berlin from East Germany, of course) had smaller GDP than Hesse:

Based on this map:

http://www.geographictravels.com/2010/10/map-of-population-and-gdp-comparisons.html

=======================================

Development of GDP (PPP) per capita in Poland (Polska) and in Ukraine (Ukraina) from 1990 to 2012:

http://forsal.pl/artykuly/780100,hi...a-polski-i-ukrainy-1990-2012-wykres-dnia.html

Similar comparison between Belarus and Poland would be even more shocking, as Belarus was richer than Poland in ca. 1989-1991.

Today Polish GDP per capita is about 3 or more times higher than Ukrainian and about 2 or more times higher than Belarusian.

And in period 1989 - 1991 it all started with Ukrainian GDP per capita being equal to Polish and Belarusian being higher than Polish.

Check also Winner's and my posts from page 4:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=521071&page=4

And here is GDP annual growth speed in period 1990 - 2012:

Polska - Poland
Ukraina - Ukraine
Świat - World

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

first of all Domen thx for all these graphs and info; you da best...

No it was Silesia Poland and Pomerania Poland, since a certain point in time.

Greater Poland was never part of the HRE, AFAIK.

Although in a certain period of time Polish Dukes were briefly paying tribute from lands located west of the Warta River.

Maybe there was a tribute paid at some point to HRE? I was deducing that becouse in EU III. Posen and Kalist(?)provinces are part of Poland but also of HRE.The game starts at 1399.

For example when exactly did Czechia / Bohemia become part of the HRE ???

IIRC, there is no general consensus on when did it become part of the HRE.

My understanding is when it started paying the peace tribute it was a vasal but once it was considered as full fledged member the payment has ceased. Later it went on to become the most priviledged and strongest part of the HRE.

The Principality of Rugia was vassal of Poland in the 1100s, but probably only from its continental territories. The island itself was vassal of Denmark.

Moreover - Polish Duke Bolesław Krzywousty was at some point paying tribute "from the land of Rugians" to the Emperor.

It means that Rugians were vassals of Poland, but at the same time Poland recognized also some sort of sovereignity of the HRE over them.

So as you can see, one place / realm / entity can be vassals of several different monarchs at the same time..

Similar situation was between Poland and Bohemia over Silesia at one point. Both have made a claim over the teritory but non of them was quite in position of making full conqest of it and it was resolved with the "help" of an Emperor that Silesia become vasal of Poland but Poland had to pay tribute to Bohemia for it. Becouse of that Bohemian kings could later go on and fully get control over the teritory once Poland ceased the payments...

 

[Domen]

Maybe there was a tribute paid at some point to HRE?

Yes but only tribute from certain areas, never tribute from entire territory.

Silesia become vasal of Poland but Poland had to pay tribute to Bohemia for it.

Silesia was not a vassal of Poland but was directly incorporated to Poland as its integral territory.

Yes, in one period Poland was paying tribute to Bohemia in exchange for Bohemia not laying further claims to that area.

Later Poland stopped paying that tribute, and I don't remember if there was a war, or Bohemia just got over it peacefully.

Becouse of that Bohemian kings could later go on and fully get control over the teritory once Poland ceased the payments...

Not quite - Poland ceased the payments several years after it started them. And Bohemia started to vassalize Polish dukes in Silesia 200 years later.

Bohemian kings could get control over Sielsia because Poland was politically fragmented during the 1200s and first half of 1300s.

Previously when Poland was united, Bohemia lost the fight for Silesia. Bohemia also lost the region of Cracow to Poland, including the city itself (in 999).

After Poland was reunited again in mid-1300s, king Casimir III tried to regain Silesia but he only managed to regain some small parts of it.

Later it went on to become the most priviledged and strongest part of the HRE.

Yes. But later - at the peak of Bohemian power - Czech Premyslid dynasty ended (in 1306) and German Luxembourg dynasty took power:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Přemyslid_dynasty

First Bohemian king of German Luxembourg dynasty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Bohemia

That switch of power from local ethnic Czech dynasty to foreign ethnic German dynasty was the beginning of Germanization in Bohemia.

Luxembourgs favoured their German-speaking subjects over their Czech-speaking or Polish-speaking (in Silesia) or other Non-German-speaking subjects.

That of course not only increased the position of existing Germans in the country, but also encouraged Non-Germans to become Germans.

Bohemian Golden Age was during the reign of last kings of the Premyslid dynasty. They were even kings of Poland (Václav II and Václav III). When power switched from Czech dynasty to German dynasty, the Golden Age of Bohemia ended and the country started to decline. The Black Death in 1300s (well, it wasn't the fault of Germans, but still), the Hussite Wars in 1400s, the Religious Wars in 1500s, the Thirty Years War in 1600s, the Silesian Wars in 1700s, etc.

The Hussite Wars period was a period which saw some De-Germanization and Re-Czechization of the population.

But later the Thirty Years War physically exterminated most of Czech-speaking noblity.

Czech "National Revival" came during the late 1700s and during the 1800s.

First of a series of Pan-Slavic congresses in Europe during the 1800s took place in Prague:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Slavic_Congress,_1848

Austro-Hungarian Empire was far less oppressive towards its Slavic-speaking citizens than the German Empire.

Had the Silesian Wars in the 1700s been won by Austria - not by Prussia - Germanization would affect Silesia to a lesser extent than it did.

 

[Winner]

That's utter bull.

Most Czechs consider the era of Karel IV (1346-1388), born Václav of House Luxembourg, son of John of Luxembourg and Eliška of House Přemyslid, as the "Golden Age" of medieval Bohemia. Charles IV is popularly referred to as "otec vlasti" (father of the country) to this day.

He established Bohemia and Prague as a centre of a cosmopolitan Empire; the reflections of that era are still clearly visible in historical sites around this country. And yeah, he spoke Czech as well as German, French and a couple of other languages.

 

[Domen]

(1346-1388)

That's Black Death period. How could Black Death be considered "Golden Age" ???

Or maybe the Black Death did not harm Bohemia too much? That was the case in Poland, which did not suffer much from Black Death.

But the city of Prague had bigger population in 1300 than in 1400.

Just because that guy constructed one amazing bridge doesn't mean that it was "Golden Age".

And yeah, he spoke Czech as well as German, French and a couple of other languages.

Yet you cannot deny that most of Luxembourg kings were favouring Germans and German language.

But it is possible that Charles IV was an exception to the rule.

He established Bohemia and Prague as a centre of a cosmopolitan Empire

Already during Premyslid dynasty Prague was one of the biggest cities in entire HRE north of the Alps.

It is not like Charles IV moved capital of the HRE to Prague and turned it from a small town into a great city.

Prague already had been a great city before, which is precisely WHY Charles IV moved capital of the HRE there.

 

[Winner]

That's Black Death period. How could Black Death be considered "Golden Age" ???

Just because that guy constructed one amazing bridge doesn't mean that it was "Golden Age".

Because that's all he did. It's not like he was a patron of art and education, a reformed and all those things which are irrelevant because he was half-GERMAN

Yet you cannot deny that most of Luxembourgs kings were favouring Germans and German language.

Of course I will deny it; as a cosmopolitan medieval ruler who grew up in France, if he favoured somebody because of their language, it was the French

Do me a favour, stick to twisting up Polish history and leave the Czech one alone - thanks.

 

[Domen]

I was talking about the Luxembourg dynasty as a whole - not about Charles IV.

As I wrote - maybe Charles IV was an exception (as you wrote - he was only Half-German).

Do me a favour, stick to twisting up Polish history and leave the Czech one alone - thanks.

I'm not twisting history. You are reading too much of modern Euro-Multiculturalist propaganda, which tells you that ethnic groups did not exist in the past, and that everyone loved each other. Propaganda that projects modern wishes and desires on how Europe should look like into how it looked like in the past.

I support Euro-Integration, Global Peace and such, but let's not twist up history in order to get it fit to modern standards of political correctness.

It's not like he was a patron of art and education

It's not like Premyslids were patrons of art and education - and not only as Kings of Bohemia, also as Kings of Poland:

Florian's Gate in Cracow was constructed most probably during the reign of Václav II Premyslid as King of Poland.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Also to the same extent modern Poland is a political continuation of the Piast Dynasty Poland, etc.

Or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? If we count that as well, then the majority of the lands in that iteration of Poland should indeed have fallen under the control of the Russian Empire. Kijow after the Deluge, Wilno and the rest during the partitions. But of course, since you talked about "historical Poland" I'd imagine that doesn't include any land taken from Lithuania after Lublin.

BTW - ywhtptgtfo where are you from?

Because your nick is trollish, your posts are trollish, I want to know if your country is also trollish.

That's a bit complicated. But I spend most of my life in Canada, so you can treat me as a Canadian. And yes, my country is ruled by trolls.

As for my posts, it depends on subject. It doesn't help that you remind me of Iwanow, who is another extreme Polish nationalist . But if it's warpus talking about Poland, my posts will certainly take a different tone.

That's Black Death period. How could Black Death be considered "Golden Age" ???

Or maybe the Black Death did not harm Bohemia too much? That was the case in Poland, which did not suffer much from Black Death.

There are quite a number of theories on why Black Death did not affect Poland much too.

 

[Domen]

Iwanow, what Iwanow? Iwanow sounds rather Russian. Russia STRONK !!!:


Link to video.

Russia war movies best in world!:

Spoiler :

That's a bit complicated. But I spend most of my life in Canada

Explain please. You are not the first complicated case. There is for example a Bosnian-German on this forum. Let's listen to a Bosnian song:


Link to video.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Iwanow, what Iwanow? Iwanow sounds rather Russian. Russia STRONK:

He probably named his alias after that. That guy's a Paradox forumite.

Explain please. You are not the first complicated case. There is for example a Bosnian-German on this forum. Let's listen to a Bosnian song:

Oh, I am not even slavic. I am Asian as mentioned in various other non-politic-related threads

 

[Domen]

Asia has a lot of countries.

You might be a suicidal Kamikaze, an Indian guy, a New Guinean tribesman, a Tibetan monk, a Muslim fighter, a Siberian nomad, or a Chinese rice eater.

Try to be more specific when describing your place of origin, please.

I'd imagine that doesn't include any land taken from Lithuania after Lublin.

Depends which lands. For example Western Podlachia was a Polonized and / or Polish-colonized territory already before Lublin.

And yes, my country is ruled by trolls.

So why did you emigrate there ??? Leave those trolls behind and come to Poland.

That guy's a Paradox forumite.

I don't know that forum. Can you provide a link to that forum?

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Asia has a lot of countries.

You might be a suicidal Kamikaze, an Indian guy, a New Guinean tribesman, a Tibetan monk, a Muslim fighter, a Siberian nomad, or a Chinese rice eater.

Oh, I am a Chinese noodle eater actually. And I am from Hong Kong to be specifc, so I was technically born in the British Empire.

So why did you emigrate there ??? Come to Poland.

I prefer to live in a Western tech country.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Oh, I am a Chinese noodle eater actually. And I am from Hong Kong to be specifc, so I was technically born in the British Empire.

I prefer to live in a Western tech country.

Get your noodles straight: Its more fun to become worlds overlord with ******** tech speed