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The Conscientious Empire: A Peaceful Builder Challenge

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by D.N. Pacem, Mar 25, 2008.

  1. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    Great! Let us know how it goes.
    If you have any questions, suggestions or rule tweak ideas, please post them here.

    Well, like I said, this style of play isn't for everyone. :)

    You're right that in the game, whales and ivory don't run out, but that's not the case in reality. As a leader in today's world, I would not engage in whaling or ivory dealing. My proposal is merely an attempt to bring these and other real-world ethical considerations into the game.

    I disagree with your assertion that factories are somehow inherently bad. It's running factories without taking the necessary steps to deal with the pollution they cause that leads to the environmental problems we see today.

    Thanks.

    I considered going back and softening my post about forbidden temples, as I wouldn't actually go so far as to ban religion in my empires, and I can imagine a scenario in which I might want to rush a temple if I need culture quickly and can't afford a library. However, overall I find temples to be a waste of money, and since I decide what gets built, they are, essentially, forbidden.
     
  2. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    After further reflection, I'm going to rescind this statement. Religions hijacked by politics have a bad historical record.

    I'm now adopting a strict separation of church and state policy. Temples are not forbidden, but I, as head of state, am forbidden to build them.
     
  3. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    Game update:

    The empire at 1285 A.D.:

    Empire2.JPG

    Shortly after the last screen shot I took of the empire, Japan founded Nagasaki in the north (since taken by the Iroquois). At that point I changed plans and moved my forbidden palace build to Gordium and set about turning the north into specialist farms. My FP is closer to my palace than I'd like, but the build went quickly, and I now have an extra large and productive core.

    Soon after the Japanese landed, the Zulu attacked again. Not wanting my golden age yet, I held them off with horseman. As I was already the largest civ, and the Zulu had nothing I wanted, I didn't bother trying to take any of their cities.

    After that came hundreds of years of peace. I was hoping that the Ottomans would start feeling hemmed in and get belligerent, as they had a few cities and a nearby luxury I wanted. But they hadn't set foot (or keel) in my territory since I ordered a galley out ages ago. As the years rolled by, I also became anxious to get my golden age started. But could I justify attacking them?

    I thought about my fireside chat with the nation. "Our impending war with the Ottomans will not only allow us to learn the secrets of their soft fabrics, but will also stimulate our economy."

    Then I put myself in the place of one of my subjects. There's no denying it; I would be one of the first out in the street chanting "No blood for silk!"

    I can't justify starting a war, but that's not the only way to start a GA. While I'm not a big wonder builder, there are a few I sometimes go for. One of my favories is to get the Theory of Evolution, use it to learn atomic theory and electronics, then start on the Hoover Dam. As the Persians, these two wonders will be all I need to start my GA. I'd recently picked up democracy, but decided I should hold off on switching until both wonders are built and my GA is over.

    Then, with about 6 turns left on the TOE, the Zulu attacked again. They were no match for my now-railroaded empire, and they made no gains on my territory. Still the largest nation myself, I had no designs on Zulu territory. But 1 immortal victory later, I was in my GA. Soon after, I took their last 15 bucks for peace.

    I still have a tech lead, I'm researching at 100% and pulling in 320g per turn, and I'm building great wonders in my golden age.

    Life is good!
     
  4. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    As soon as I declared that life is good, the Babylonians declared war (serves me right).

    They’re the second-largest civ (red on the map), so I had to take them seriously. I brought the other two civs on my continent into it. The Ottomans were raring to go, needing only my world map and 35 gold, and I got the Zulu in with an old tech I’d already sold to others.

    The war led to an ethical situation not covered by the proposed rules. Here’s the turn as I’m about to attack Zariqum. (Trust me, there’s a bunch of cavalry standing there with my infantryman.):

    Zariqumattack.JPG

    As you can see, Konya starts the war as an Ottoman city. Shortly after this, it was conquered by the Babylonians. I took it on the following turn.

    Now, according to my rules, since the Babylonians declared on me, I can starve the city until the war is over. But here’s the problem: The citizens of this city aren’t Babylonians, they’re Ottomans. Not only are the Ottomans my allies, I led them into this war. The poor Konyans were sitting ducks. I can’t, in good conscience, starve this city.

    Instead, I evacuated most of the Ottomans by building workers and giving them a free ride to their empire:

    Konyaworker.JPG workergift.JPG

    (Ethical puzzles like this that crop up are what make playing this way intriguing to me.)
     
  5. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    That's another option, but I didn't feel the need to be that magnanimous. The Ottomans lost the city fair and square and were in no position to recapture it. Who knows what horrors the Babylonians would have inflicted on the poor Konyans had I not acted quickly?

    Another possibility, which would avoid uprooting the Konyans, would be to join enough of my own workers to the city to even out the population. Unfortunately, Konya didn’t have enough food to support any more citizens.

    Under the circumstances, I feel my actions were fair.
    The Geneva Convention also forbids expanding your territory by military means. This would make the game virtually unplayable.

    Accordingly, “occupation” is defined as a temporary situation. That is not the case here.

    I believe we can realistically assume, given the expansion ban, that none of the other civs in this game would agree to the GC, at least not in good faith, so we have no obligation to uphold its directives.

    However, your point does strike a humanitarian chord with me. Starving innocent civilians, even those from an aggressor nation, isn’t a very noble act of war. I’m going to more thoroughly evaluate these situations in the future.
     
  6. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    I’ve thought about this and decided that the key word is innocent. What about when they’re not so innocent?

    I’ve decided that, in addition to the other requirements previously stated, I will no longer starve a city unless it is in resistance. I feel this is a justifiable military tactic when the other civ is the one who declared war.

    Thanks, Meisen, for helping me think this through more critically.

    Err, yeah . . . that too. :)
     
  7. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    Game update:

    Eight turns into a 245gpt deal for electronics, the Aztecs landed a couple of cavalry on my turf. I guess they were tired of paying.

    As they are on another continent and don’t have anything I need, usually I would just swat them away with battleships until they were ready for peace. In this case, though, the unexpected war gives me a chance to do something I’ve had my eye on for a while.

    There are only four sources of ivory in this world, and the Aztecs have them. Monty hooked up the lot before he had access to a harbor, and I’ve only had one chance to buy some (I turned it down).

    Conclusion: The Aztecs are pushing the elephants to extinction.

    Elephants2.JPG

    Luckily, I’m in good enough shape to do something about it. I got the Americans on board with me against the Aztecs and set out to capture the ivory.

    Well, the Zulu decided they didn’t want to pay either, and got the Ottomans to join them against me. I set the Babylonians against these two. Then someone got the Iroquois into it, and it became a real mess. By the time it was over I was suffering from war weariness, but I had expelled the Iroquois from my territory and took a couple of Ottoman and Zulu cities.

    More importantly, though, the elephant is now a protected species.

    Elephantssaved.JPG
     
  8. Snarkhunter

    Snarkhunter Chieftain

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    Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Indian War Elephants, whenever you run into them in a game?

    kk
     
  9. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    Frightened. :)

    But really, I'm not an animal rights activist. I protect elephants from extinction, but once that is done I still use the ivory. Killing war elephants is not a problem.
     
  10. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    Victory!

    Wongame.JPG

    According to my rules:

    We didn’t attack barbarian tribes before they attacked us.
    We didn’t use slaves or sell workers into slavery.
    We didn’t starve cities unless their civ attacked us and the cities were in resistance.*
    We didn’t make use of any endangered species.

    *Except Izmit and Zariqum, which were handled under the original rules.

    Additional accomplishments:

    We preserved a healthy population of right whales well into the modern age.
    We saved the elephant from extinction.
    Best of all, we never declared war on another civ (but were always ready when they declared on us).

    I’m not quite sure why I dominated this game so thoroughly. I can’t remember the last time I held a tech lead that long. I think it was a combination of a successful expansion strategy and good and timely trades. It turned out to be my third-highest spaceship victory score.

    At any rate, it gives me some confidence as I move on to emperor –- where I doubt I’ll be running off to save any elephants.

    (I’ll try to take notes, save some screenshots and post my adventures in the Stories & Tales forum.)
     
  11. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    Congrats on winning within your rules!:goodjob:
     
  12. Pyrrhos

    Pyrrhos Vae Victis

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    This is an upsetting rape of nature! :eek: Habitats have been recklessly destroyed in order to make way for just the one species, mankind. Woods have been chopped, jungles have been cleared, land is raped for metals and watered to make way for white man's food, there are roads and tracks for iron horses everywhere.

    Being concerned about the elephant is a good thing, but what of the Water Vole, the Yellow Reed Warbler or the Green Mamba whose habitats you so recklessly have destroyed? Where is your conscientousness for those species? ;)
     
  13. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    Thanks! :cool:

    I know you're joking, but there certainly are some anti-progress types that would have trouble playing this game by their conscience.

    The way I see it, we can save other species from ourselves, but we can't protect them against the next large comet or asteroid that has Earth's name on it. All we can do is find another planet that can support Earth's life and figure out a way to get there. While we should do what we can to prevent it, if a few minor species must be sacrificed in order for us to make this journey, it is for the greater good.

    That said, I usually leave a few spaces in my empires unimproved as "nature preserves" -- the spaces that don't fall within any of my cities' BFCs. But then, I also did that before I started playing this way, as improving such squares just wastes worker turns.
     
  14. darski

    darski Regent in Training

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    Will the bleeding heart liberals please line up to the left!!!

    if you truly believed any of this you would not even play the game!
     
  15. Pyrrhos

    Pyrrhos Vae Victis

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    What for? A shower? :mischief:
     
  16. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    So things like slavery and ethnic cleansing are just fine and dandy with you?

    How sad.
     
  17. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    In RL, those are bad things. In this game, just part of the way things are. I don't keep slaves in RL, but I do when I play. I don't use ivory, but my people love it in the game. I don't capture and raze enemy cities and carry the population off in the real world either. It is just a game, not reflective of who plays it. If you play the massive online multiplayer games, you are just as likely to get toasted by a bleeding heart liberal as by a bible-thumpin, gun totin redneck. Overall, I do think she was joking. I think this is another thread devolving into a bad place and probably should be closed.
     
  18. D.N. Pacem

    D.N. Pacem Chieftain

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    I'm not saying I think everyone should be playing this way. It was just a suggestion in case anyone wanted to give it a try.

    In retrospect, I guess this wasn't a good place to propose such an idea. Close the thread if you really feel it's necessary.
     
  19. Optional

    Optional Chieftain

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    I liked this thread! Things like this have their place in Civ and in this forum. Even if you don't care about political correctness in art and games, making lines to the real world makes things come to life more.
     
  20. Jokeslayer

    Jokeslayer Dedicated

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    Where else are you going to propose it?

    FWIW, I like threads like these. Trying out other people's variant suggestions is always fun. Always War and 5CC were just someone's wacky idea too, and those seem to be pretty popular.
     

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