The Contrast Photojournals I: Austria (pt. II) - new players welcome!

[Owlbebach]

Sorry, didn't phrase that question well. I meant more: if you could either focus on growth in Renaissance-Industrial then Specialists in end-game, or just hit Specialists up earlier in Renaissance-Industrial, which would you do as Austria?

I sure choose to grow in Renaissance, not sure about Industrial. Cities grow faster in the late game. However that depends on your victory condition and stuff. Technically if you play diplomacy - you only need to work all of your scientists until you unlock Atomic Theory. After that you don't need science at all.

It is important to understand you victory condition. In the beginning of the game you need your cities to be overall strong but in the end - yo need only some specific thing to win the game and you do not need everything else. For example if you want Space Ship - you don't need culture after you finish Rationalism and you don't need gold. You only need science and Production

 

[tu_79]

I sure choose to grow in Renaissance, not sure about Industrial. Cities grow faster in the late game. However that depends on your victory condition and stuff. Technically if you play diplomacy - you only need to work all of your scientists until you unlock Atomic Theory. After that you don't need science at all.

It is important to understand you victory condition. In the beginning of the game you need your cities to be overall strong but in the end - yo need only some specific thing to win the game and you do not need everything else. For example if you want Space Ship - you don't need culture after you finish Rationalism and you don't need gold. You only need science and Production

I was aiming for science victory, I think I can get it before Persia, already built train station and seaports and many factories, but it's true I'm not counting on Arabia lategame cultural bombs.

So, after you, I should have taken a corporation that helps with science instead? I thought more food can be used for working more scientists and engineers.

 

[CrazyG]

In Renaissance I'm usually working specialists, but it can depend on my tech plan. I can grow more easily when I reach agribusiness. In my experience you will give up like 20 turns of great people to get what becomes like 3 turns of growth post-agribusiness. You also get higher rewards for growing if you wait until the city is stronger or in a later era.

 

[CrabHelmet]

And there we go. Turn 300 Cultural Victory. I don't think you can shave more than 3-4 turns off that from where we started, because the biggest delay is simply the wait between Congresses. I was Influential on Persia one turn after World Ideology, and better management of trade routes could have shaved one turn off there, and a greater investment in Production in Vienna could have taken 2-3 turns off building the Cultural Victory project, so maybe turn 296, if you absolutely smashed it?

Diplomatic Victory would happen on turn 311. You can't accelerate that from where we are.

Science Victory is slower than both.

Ignore the state of all my cities and the war etc., the last 15 turns were just absentminded clicking.

Spoiler :

Turn 251: Well, we're in an absolutely sterling position. We control 38 Delegates, you need 43 to win World Leader. We are Influential over 2 Civs, with 6 to go, and most very close. Our Science is 3 techs ahead of the next closest, and will accelerate absurdly as we push through Rationalism.

That actually makes deciding which Victory Condition to go for quite difficult. My personal thought is that Diplomatic is going to be the easiest. Because Persia has been Sanctioned, and does not have Open Borders with us, it is quite hard to hit them with Tourism.

Meanwhile, Ife can be married next turn and we're at 39 Delegates. Our Sphere of Influence vote should pass and we're at 40 delegates. Ten turns after that, Marriage and 40 delegates. World Ideology is 42 Delegates, and then 43 and 44 because the Netherlands and Mongolia, being Vassals, have to follow my ideology. In other words, this condition is in the bag, it is basically just a matter of time.

Despire the fact from @tu_79's choices, I think this was initially aimed at a Scientific victory, I think Science is actually the worst victory condition (other than Doomination). Both Diplomatic and Cultural only require us to reach Telecommunications, Science requires waaaay more effort, really far up the tech tree. I am less enthused about reaching this.

At the moment, I am going to keep mixed options. The Diplomatic game and the Cultural game aren't really in conflict, so I can pursue both with relative ease. Both rely in beelining Telecommunications.

At the same time, we don't want to be derailed by an overly mighty Persia. I want to keep a good enough military for defensive purposes. The easiest way to do that is keep an eye on the Science yields from trading with Darius. He will almost certainly be taking the bottom line of techs, being war-oriented. If he ever knows a tech I don't, it is time for me to jump back to the bottom line.

With all this in mind, it is time to pick our Ideology.

Autocracy is too heavily focused on combat and expansion. Elite Forces doesn't help when my military will not be growing much from this point. United Front is not as powerful as other options for City-State Influence. Futurism is meh when I'm not conquering cities. Lebensraum won't help me since my borders are already largely filled out. I have so much happiness New World Order doesn't do much. About the only "really good" tenet for me is Iron Fist, which in and of itself is not sufficient.

Order and Freedom is the more difficult choice. I actually had to sit down and compare them very closely to see the winner. Here's tier 1:

Hero of the People is slightly better than Avant Garde. Avant Garde gives +33% to Great People production to HotP's +25%, but HotP gives me a free Great Scientist in the immediate future to bomb science.
Peace, Land, Bread is a lot better than Urbanization. I just sat down and calculated the yields for this one. +2 on Farms is not as good as +20% growth, because I have huge excess Food from Agribusiness, so the growth modifier is larger.
Worker Faculties is in my view slightly better than Creative Expression. My tourism will be good enough from other sources I don't think Creative Expression adds much. What I want to do is reach Telecommunications faster.
Covert Actions and Double Agents are about equal. Covert Actions is very marginally better for the CS coup bonus, but I don't really need that as a source of Influence.
Guerilla Warfare and Volunteer Army are about equal. Volunteer Army is maybe marginally better in the short run, since it spawns the 6 troops instantly, but Guerilla Warfare makes the rest of my troops stronger since I am fighting defensively and gives me the quite powerful Guerilla Fighters.
Communism is better than Economic Union. Economic Union gets me +2 trade routes and +6 gold per trade route. I will have 10 trade routes with it. If they all run to allied City-states, that's an additional 100 GPT, 25 Science, and 50 Culture. Communism cuts Buildings investment by 33%, so if my Gold goes mostly on Buildings, it effectively increases my GPT by 33%. That's 382 Gold per turn. Even if I spend half of all future Gold on units, it would still be better. Even if I spent a third, it will still be marginally better! I would miss the Science and Culture, but they don't get modifiers applied, so tough luck.
Universal Healthcare is *miles* better than People's Army. I would get 250 Culture a birth, and I have enough cities a birth happens every 2 turns or so. THat's +125 Culture a turn. By contrast, Public Schools giving +3 Culture is getting me about +20 Culture-ish.

So, they mostly go Order, with two basically even, and then one very heavily for Freedom.

The next tier is harder to do direct comparisons, there's no easy "pattern" like there is for the first tier. In general: the Happiness from Freedom is utterly redundant, my Happiness is through the roof right now. So that makes Capitalism pretty poor. Universal Suffrage gives longer Golden Ages, but I don't really need longer Golden Ages, I generate so many Great Artists etc. Finest Hour is kind of irrelevant. I don't need to go on the offensive with B17s, and I don't need the improved City strength when I will have a great navy and airforce. Arsenal of Democracy doesn't do much. +10 Influence is trivial at this stage in the game, and increased production to military units isn't much use when I won't be making any. The reduced Food from Specialists is neat, but overall I think Peace, Land, Bread still does overall more for me Food-wise. The big draw for Freedom is the improvement to Great Person Improvements. In Vienna, that's +20 base science at least, +10 in Amsterdam, and +5 Science in Graz, for +35.

Order has an equivalent: Party Leadership, offering +5 Science per City, for +25 from my non-puppets, and +8 from my puppets, for +33, so pretty comparable, but Freedom wins on that front insofar as the Science is concentrated in Vienna, which has more modifiers. However, Order does better almost everywhere else. Great Leap Forward has two Free Techs, which is huge for me. Academy of Science grants Free Research Labs, which is a massive and easy science injection, they take a while to build otherwise. Resettlement is neat. Not super powerful, but useful when the time comes. Five-Year Plan will be huge for keeping up my infrastructure.

I think this all falls very heavily to Order.

Finally, the tier 3. My happiness is enormous so Dictatorship of the Proletariat is just obviously better than Media Culture. Spaceflight Pioneers is better than Space Procurements because in all honesty I am probably not aiming for a Science victory, where as Spaceflight Pioneers gives me my Great Scientists. Treaty Organizations is basically redundant because I have enough delegates without it. Iron Curtain is not wildly useful but at least it isn't redundant.

Clean Order sweep.

Freedom wins on Wonders. In all honesty, the Motherland Calls is pretty meh, I sometimes go games without even bothering to build it. Meanwhile, the Statue of Liberty offers me about 50 Production across my Empire. Nevertheless, this isn't enough to make up for how heavily Order has won overall. The two real blows are missing free Hospitals and missing Statue of Liberty, but we can live without that.

Phew, that took a long time! Very close decision.

I start with Peace, Land, Bread. The 20% growth obviously has more impact sooner than later, which is much less true for the others. Only the 10% Science on Factories was also worth considering, but that can wait a small while.

My Engineer rushes Firaxis. It is again one of those things that is better sooner than later.

Turn 252: Firaxis HQ completes. Vienna heads into Agribusiness. The rest of my Cities are going to move onto Firaxis offices. I get a Marriage with Ife.

Turn 253: The Netherlands nicks back Mombasa. Annoying they're even still bothering, what with having a single mediocre City left.

Turn 254: A Great Scientist is born in Vienna, and a Great Merchant in Graz. I use them both for instant boosts, no point in planting Manufactories now. My goal is to beeline Atomic Theory, so I can get the United Nations as soon as possible.

This also takes me through Replaceable Parts, where I can build Wire Services, which will add 16 Culture and 16 Science per City, enormously powerful.

Turn 255: Vienna starts on the Empire State Building. I faith-purchase a great Scientist.

Turn 256: the Great Scientist is used. I head into Radio - the Tourism increases will be really powerful.

Between turns, Assyria seeks peace. I agree. Persia is absolutely destroying Arabia right now.

Turn 257: Mostly infrastructure management now. I start building the Wire Service everywhere - so powerful.

Between turns, Assyria denounces me.

Turn 258: I hit Radio. I also get my next Tenet. I opt for Worker Faculties to get the Science increase.

The World Congress convenes. As before, I use the same AI voting Logic tricks. 11 delegates against Dutch Sphere on Byblos, 15 against Repealing the World Religion, the rest on SoI Samarkand. I head into Flight.

Arabia has reached Biology. I need to keep an eye on that - I do not want him to get the Cristo Redentor under any circumstances. Not sure I need worry too much - Persia is on his case. If Persia takes Mecca, then I would say my win is guaranteed, I just need to turtle against Persia.

Turn 259: All three of my votes go my way. My proposal is for Sphering, yet again. It's so clearly the most advantageous for me, the huge yields from trade routes with City-state Allies can't be beaten by the other options. Sphere of Influence: Lhasa is next up. A Marriage on Samarkand gets me to 39 Delegates, Alliance with Lhasa is 40, Marriage with Lhasa is 41, World Ideology is 44, snce Netherlands and Mongolia will follow, and that's a wrap.

Turn 260: I remmeber to optimize my Great Works. Adds about 20 Culture. A Great Scientist is Faith-purchased.

Turn 261: The Great Scientist is used; there's now only 3 turns left on Atomic Theory.

Turn 262: A Great Artist and Great Merchant are born. I hold on to the Great Artist - I might need it to extend my Golden Age, depends how well I tech towards Stadiums. The Great Merchant is immediately used. Byblos will give a lot of Science for 1 successful Spy action on William, so off I go.

Turn 263: More infrastructure decisions.

Turn 264: Atomic Era reached! I am to backfill now, heading for Biology. My tourism is ferocious now, even Persia is over 50%. Astonishingly, I haev a Uranium Strategic Monopoly as soon as I finish researching. One source is directly under Amsterdam, and the other is under the Citadel on the land bridge. There's also a souce near Groningen... and when that's done, I'll have enough for a Global Monopoly!

Turn 265: Empire State Building get! Great Scientist get! Said Great Scientist is immediately used to smash through Biology and leave Plastics with only a turn left. I'm sent a motley assortment of units from my Vassals. I also Remain Host.

Next up in Vienna is The Manhattan Project, which will take... a single turn?!

I also reach my third tenet. This was a tough choice. Looking at the tier two tenets: Great Leap Forward is best used later, since later Techs cost more Science. Nationalization doesn't benefit me at all, since I have more trade partners than I do non-puppet Cities. Cultural Revolution has no effect, as I am tech eader and nobody else has Order. Resettlement would have close to trivial effect.

I settle on Academy of Science. Party Leadership does better for other yields, but I want Science - we are racing to end-game here.

I become Influential over the Huns between turns.

Turn 266: Completing the Espionage Quest for Byblos shoots me through Plastics. A great Writer is born in Vienna. A Great Scientist is Faith-born in Vienna, which moves on to Cristo Redentor - I don't want anyone else to take it. I barely even have the Hospitals up for medical Labs, so no point in Penicillin, and I go for Refrigeration.

My Great Writer is used for a Culture burst. It's more useful for me now than Great Works, even for a Tourism victory, since it brings tenets so much nearer. My next tenet is 2 turns away.

Between turns, I become Influential over the Netherlands.

Turn 267: Just counting down turns now. Darius declares war on Ashurbanipal between turns.

Turn 268: Next tenet! I go with Hero of the People. I don't really nee the Military Academies much, and my gold is still going on units not buildings at the moment. Guerilla Warfare won't help, I'm at my supply limit. I have more spies than I need. Once again, Great Scientist. I also Faith purchase one. I head into Computers, and get a Marriage with Samarkand. I now control 41 Delegates.

Turn 269: My next Great Scientist puts through Computers and reduces Penicillin to a single turn. Not far at all from Telecommunications...

Turn 270: I use my Great Artist to rebegin my Golden Age. There's 17 turns worth of it. I head into Electronics.

The biggest block to my success is actually Sanction Persia right now. The lack of Open Borders with Persia means I am really struggling to gain Culture over them. It looks like this will be a Diplomatic victory, I am fairly certain of that.

Turn 271: After Mombasa's election is successfully rigged, they return to being an Ally. I have 42 votes. 1 away, and that's without World Ideology. I move my Spy to Riga. I gain a Global Monopoly on Uranium.

My goal now is to try and clear Telecommunications before the next World Congress session. It will be a squeeze, but I have two great Scientists on the way.

If I can make Telecommunications, I have no need for Science. I will be completely done from that point. Consequently, there's no point in doing any more Science buildings. Instead, I am going to start aiming for Tourism. Hotels everywhere!

Turn 272: I Faith-Buy a Great Scientist.

Turn 273: A Great Scientist is born! And PERSIA WENT ORDER!!!!!!!! That makes Cultural victory also incredibly easy. Really, really, bad choice by the AI there. Maybe @Gazebo should look at this? Like, wow, can't believe they did that.

I use both Great Scientists to burst through Telecommunications - 1 turn before the World Congress. That means I can propose World Ideology now. Or the United Nations Project. Either/or, really.

With Vienna done on Cristo Redentor, I'm in a pretty amazin position. There is just no need to go for a Science win now. Instead, I am going with the Motherland Calls, so Darius doesn't get there first. Meanwhile, Salzburg works on the Palace of Culture and Science. I'll get three votes for my two vassals and one Defensive Pact.

I'm more or less showing off now, so Bletchley Park is started in Amsterdam.

Turn 274: A Great Musician is born in Vienna. I am sending it towards Darius; it arrives in 8 turns.

I don't want to get caught unawares militarily, so I return to filling out missed parts of the tech tree, running through Combustion into Ballistics.

Turn 275: ARABIA ALSO ADOPTS ORDER!!! Oh, happy days!

Turn 276: I am now using Zoos to culture-bomb everyone.

Turn 277: I discover a *lot* of Oil. I also get my next tenet. It's an easy choice, the +34% Tourism to other Order Civs. I will go with World Ideology: Order.

Turn 278: The Motherland Calls is finished. I can go to the T3 tenets, and go with Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Between turns I become Influential over Ashurbanipal.

Turn 279-280: Basically just clicking through turns now. Bought a Great Engineer to rush the Cultural Project.

Turn 281: CN Tower completed in Vienna. Now INfluential over everyone except Persia.

Turn 282: Got Bletchley Park for kicks from Amsterdam. Investing in Stadiums everywhere.

Turn 283: More Zoos etc.

Turn 284: My great Musician reaches Persia and performs a Concert. I'm still only 72.9% Influential... annoying...

Turn 285: Atilla declares war. Assyria paid him to. Makes no real difference.

Turn 286: Vienna completes a final Stadium in a mad-dash attempt to get to Influential with Persia before the World Ideology vote.

Turn 287: Voes allocates. Other propositions were passports and Sanction Austria. Passport and Sanction Austria Fail, World Ideology wins. I propose the United Nations, but I will have won before then (probably).

Turn 288: World Ideology wins, but I'm at only 97.9% Influence with persia, so I cant start the Cultural Hegemony project straight away.

Turn 289: And now we're Influential with persia. My Capital switches to the citizen earth protocol. Confession: I completely forgot you could not rush this with Great Engineers. That is annoying. I have it at taking 12 turns instead.

Assyria declares war between turns. Too late, pal!

Turns etc.: Just clicking through now. Would be impossible for anyone else to take me out in time and if they try I will nuke their capital. -shrugs-

Honestly, all the key decisions are made before turn 273, where I spent a lot of careful decisions on how to hit Telecoms before the next Congress vote (although I forgot to readjust my trade routes, which as I said, lost me a turn). After turn 273 it's just "build anything moderately related to Tourism and wait", not really worth examining.

 

[Tzar Sasha]

Well bummer! I stop in to say that I have made some good progress but may have to delay till next I can play only to find out that Crab got a cultural victory. Probably should have put that in a spoiler? Oh well nothing to be done now but see how bad I screwed it up in comparison.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I can Spoiler it if you want, but I don't think there's a "best" Victory. Diplomatic is certainly securer, in that it is just a waiting game from the moment this save starts, really. Look forward to seeing which approach you took and how!

 

[Tzar Sasha]

I got all the running around done that I had to do. Decided that I'd just go ahead and get this done. I'll post the write up and pictures tomorrow (technically later today). Lets just say that, I ended up not being too far behind CrabHelmet on the win. There are some things that I made mistakes on which affected the outcome, but I did take steps to correct it and while it did change the win date by a few turns it wasn't too drastic. Oh and I wasn't in a war when I won. So... a better win? LOL

 

[Tzar Sasha]

Spoiler The write up :

Turn 251
Ideology choice:
The tech researched seems to indicate a desire for Freedom. I surmise this as the tech to get the Freedom unique building is available to research right away with a short jump into the Atomic era through Plastics into Penicillin without needing to research anything else.
Will Freedom be best to get us the votes needed by then? Do we have the votes now?

Order also seems viable, its unique building requires a couple more techs to obtain and those techs are not on the immediate path to diplomatic victory, but could be obtained after. I have not actually played a game with Order in VP. I am really tempted for that reason alone. There are some good things in Order such as tourism to all civs with less happiness. But that is a tier 3 and would be some time before getting it. The game could already be won by then.

Autocracy seems best for the warmongering type as most of its policies center around capturing or captured cities. I hope to not have to do that. But Assyria in this game has two city states captured and we are at war. But that alone does not justify taking an entire ideology centered around war.

Do I give them the freedom they want or the order they need?

I'm going to go Order. Worker Faculties is my first policy choice. With only 2 factories having been built, this one will help with the remaining cities plus they now provide a science boost. A much needed addition to compensate for the maintenance costs.

Turn 252
Enough Archaeologists have been built to secure all antiquity sites within our borders. Salzburg is building a factory for 3 turns. Will need to start spamming diplomats to get the remaining CS in line. I cannot allow The Netherlands to try and take any more. They are already wanting Sphere of Influence on Byblos. I have to somehow kill that one as well as repealing Taoism along with getting Sphere of Influence over Samarkand. 6 turns till the vote. Probably won't get any new ones by then. I just hope I don't loose any by then either.

Married Ife, just barely enough gold this turn. 5 more turns for the next potential marriage and I'll need 1400 gold. That will be at least 3 turns. I have some seriously outdated ships needing upgraded but at over 1k gold each, I'd rather build new if I need them.

Had Archaeologist create a landmark within working range of Salzburg. 3 food, 6 gold, 5 culture. There are plenty of others to get artifacts from.

Turn 253
The Netherlands stole Mombasa as ally. And they have yet another Great Diplomat in the field heading to one of the other CS within our area. Amsterdam is building a diplomat for 3 turns and perhaps leave them spamming diplomats for the remainder of the game.

A landmark in Belgrade giving a boost to influence (about 50 it seems), tooltip said a one time LARGE boost. Did not realize it would be such a small amount as compared to what diplomats can get. Oh well, I'm sure it helped any way.

Turn 254
Expended a GM that was born in Graz for cash in Mombasa. This will help with the next marriage and maybe allow a unit upgrade. We will see. Not really fighting Assyria. Did destroy a ship that was up by Graz. Arabia took Lhasa as ally from The Netherlands. A GS was born in Vienna but I'm going to wait one turn before expending it. The current tech will be done by then and I can use it to boost a fresh new tech.

Starting a railroad between Salzburg and Vienna. Salzburg is the only viable city for a train station. Might as well get that production boost in soon. I just don't want The Netherlands to take advantage of the railroad and spam even more diplomats into the area. While I like being able to quickly move units from one side to the other. I do not like that diplomatic units can move through territory without an open border agreement.

Turn 255
Researching one after the other, Biology into Plastics into Penicillin. This will get us to the Atomic era in order to start work on the United Nations project.
Building diplomats in Graz & Linz. 3 turns each. Will come too late to reclaim Mombasa before the vote. Building work boats in Graz to replace those that appeared to either not have been built or were razed at some point.
Expending GS to boost the research. And Biology completed, 6 turns left on Plastics

Am I lucky or what? Somehow Mombasa got converted to Tengrisim. They want Taoism and will give 301 influence. That puts me at only 90 off from getting them back from The Netherlands. Purchase a diplomat on this turn for 910 gold. I'll still have enough for the marriage with Prague in 2 turns and get Mombasa back before the vote in 3 turns.

Artifact taken from antiquity site near Old Sarai

Turn 256
Arabia snags Prague from me with just a couple turns before marriage. Bummer. Good news, I got Mombasa back with the purchased diplomat and the missionary purchased in Vienna. Panama City also wants converted back to Taoism so the missionary can move on down there to finish off its conversions. The diplomat build in Amsterdam will arrive to Mombasa on the next turn. I'll use it to get further influence. Then I need to work on the other CS.

Since I cannot marry any time soon, I can afford to upgrade a unit or two. Will focus on Frigates first.

Turn 257
Firaxite corporation complete in Vienna. Starting Empire State Building. Panama City wanted a trade route, Graz just finished a cargo ship and building another work boat for a fish tile.
I think I will expend the GE sitting in Vienna on the Empire State Building.

Purchased a GD with faith in Vienna (used almost all the faith) Hope I can get it to Lhasa in under 16 turns while they still have the influence boost quest active. Other diplomats may go there as well. Or I'll just throw them on auto and let them go wherever. I'm lazy like that LOL

Assyria offered peace. I accepted it.

Turn 258
The further into the game, the more that happens on each turn. Persia captured an Arabian city. Assyria denounced us. Building Firaxite office in Salzburg, cargo ship in Graz and public school in Linz. Vienna has 4 turns left on Empire State Building and Amsterdam is building another diplomat for the time being. The Great Diplomat and the regular diplomats can all reach Lhasa in 5 turns. That will be plenty of time to take advantage of the influence boost. Send a few more every so often till the 10 turns are up and marriage.

Policy choice:
People's Army. Gets me free military academies and public schools provide culture and happiness.

Congress vote:
Choices are
Austrian Sphere of Influence: Samarkand
Dutch Sphere of Influence: Byblos
Repeal World Religion: Taoism

We have 38 votes, everyone else combined 26.
Of those only 14 do not have Taoism. I can safely put 14 votes there and null them out. That leaves me with 24 votes. According to the tooltips, there are 15 votes with 4 unknown for the Dutch to have Byblos and 19 against Austria to have Samarkand.

I'd rather loose out on getting an assured alliance than loose a CS to another. So since I don't understand all the intricacies of how each civ leans when voting. I'm doing 14 against the repeal, 19 against Dutch getting Byblos and 5 for Austria getting Samarkand

We will see how it turns out. If nothing else, it ends up at a stalemate and we're in the same position as we are now.

Turn 259
Votes are in. The results: everything failed as I predicted.
14 votes to repeal against my 14 to not
The Netherlands put all 9 of their votes against sphere of influences for Samarkand. They didn't even vote on their own proposal. I wasted 19 votes on that one.
Oh well, at least it is still the status quo.

Proposing sphere of influence over Samarkand again.

Melbourne has a quest for highest tourism. I need to maintain the alliance. Hotels will be a priority once current builds finish.

Turn 260
Arabia just became vassal of Persia. They went to war against The Huns. I can see them thinking that The Hun lands would be a quicker stepping stone to taking the Austrian capital than going directly from their continent. Better prepare defenses as able.

Turn 261
One turn out from Empire State Building and I see that I can build the Palace of Culture and Science. It gives 5% boost to culture and science in the city as well as receiving one vote fore every defense pact or vassal.
Persia just declared peace with The Huns, perhaps I should consider some defense pacts with The Huns and Assyria.
At any rate, I'll build that as soon as the Empire State Building is finished.

Turn 262
Great Artist born naturally. Used it for a work of art, put that in The Hermitage, then traded one of the other Austrian works of art for an Industrial work of art from The Huns. Thus completing the theme bonus and pushing me up to 142 tourism. Back into the lead for Melbourne's tourism quest.

Great person choice for having built the Empire State Building: Another Great Diplomat to help with Lhasa. The Netherlands already snagged them from Arabia.

Turn 264
I don't know if this was smart or not. I traded one of each of my extra luxuries along with 7 GPT to secure votes from The Huns to vote against Sphere of Influence for the city state that The Netherlands wants. It will be less votes for the repeal and less votes against my sphere of influence. I think only one vote but sometimes it is that one vote that changes things.

I should be building Research Labs to increase the science rate, but I am not and you'll see why soon.

Turn 265
The Netherlands enter the Modern era. We now advance to the next stage and select leader of the world congress. No brainer, I now have 43 votes and put them all in to retain leadership.

Turn 266
Penicillin completed alongside the birth of a Great Writer. Instead of getting a work of writing, I will boost my culture and reduce the number of turns to the policy after the next one (policy choice due in one turn)
Moving to the bottom of the tech tree and catching up on military.
Definitely won the leader vote.
Lhasa wants the Cristo Redentor built. I can do this. I can put it in Vienna right after it completes a Seaport. And having put it off till hitting Atomic Era drops older wonders from affecting the production. It is now much cheaper and faster to build. Fast enough to consider doing it before the Seaport.

Turn 267
Dutch wanted to trade 2 GPT for a handful of horses. They're my vassal and need to be able to assist in defense if necessary. I agree.
Policy choice: Academy of Sciences
And because of my earlier usage with the Great Writer, I get to pick another policy in just 2 turns.
We also became influential over The Huns with The Netherlands soon to follow.

Turn 268
I am informed that Attila sent a sneak attack force my way. Linz is building a submarine to scope that out while some of the navy is moving towards cities on the western side. Only Aluminum is coming from Panama City for a whopping 3 total. 2 more from policies, religion or corporation. Probably the corporation. Okay, so if I need aluminum I'll have to build recycling centers and/or take them from others
Meanwhile Persia and its Arabian vassal declared war on Assyria

Turn 269
Due to possible pending attack, my policy choice (which is merely a selection so that I can pick a tier 2 next time) will be Guerilla Warfare.

Interesting thing about Ideologies, you can get every single tier 1 and tier 3 option but you cannot select every tier 2. This is where each civ following the same Ideology can make themselves different. So I am not that concerned about pushing off a different policy choice in the tier 1 till later.

Researching Replaceable Parts, this will allow me to build another Order specific building.

Turn 270
Just noticed a second source of Aluminum also owned by Panama City. I paid them 200 gold to improve that source giving me an additional 3 from them. If they hadn't captured Kanesh from Assyria...

Turn 273
Found 4 Hunnic Corvettes beetween Tabriz and the city states of Mombasa and Byblos. I have a single Ironclad... Bringing a field cannon to sit on the citadel in case they do attack. That submarine should be done soon. They have not declared war, we still have open borders so we'll see what happens.
Vote in 3 turns and it is the exact same proposals.
Married Lhasa

Turn 274
Finished one tech, started Combustion and tagged Radio as next. Expended the newly born Great Scientest to complete Combustion and leave 3 turns on Radio. The Hunnic navy has moved on towards Turfan. My Ironclad is moving along with them to keep tabs on them. Altered where I was sending units as Turfan only has a Lancer for defense.

Oil discovered. Most plots are in the water. However, I did get lucky in that in Vienna and Karakorum great person improvements were placed on oil tiles. Turfan itself was place on an oil tile. 17 total from tiles without having to do a thing.

Turn 275
Interesting things... What did Crab say about The Huns declaring war when they thought they couldn't win... The officially did. Their corvettes destroyed the single ironclad that had been tagging along. Expected that to be honest. Turfan seems to be their target. Had a Cruiser down at Otar, brought it up to help. Moving some Ironclads over but it could take a few. I hope not too late. Already have a field cannon that should be able to start fighting back next turn.

I forgot to mention it, but Persia went Order as well. This should allow for an easier time of passing world ideology.

Turn 276
Here are my votes, assuming voting goes as last time. 17 votes against the repeal to cancel the 17 for. 10 vote for my influence with Samarkand to counter all the the dutch votes (I'm relying on Mongolia to vote for it again) and 17 votes against the dutch sphere of influence with Byblos (I'm relying on the others to vote for the repeal).
Researching Flight

Turn 277
The votes are in:
Repeal World Religion Taoism - fails
Dutch Sphere of Influence Byblos - fails
Austrian Sphere of Influence Samarkand - passed
Yay! Will have one more under my belt.

Meanwhile, lost my cruiser. A group of ironclads are close approaching, just wasn't soon enough.

I thought one just needed to be in the Atomic era to build the United Nations. Apparently one needs Atomic Theory technology... Proposing sphere of influence on Riga, they are the last Dutch ally. Prague is the only other CS not currently allied.

Also got a global monopoly on coal and porcelain this turn.
A Great Engineer was born, I'm going to save it. Think I'll use it on Broadway. 4 turns left on The Motherland Calls. Pretty sure I'll get it even tho Persia and now Arabia both have the Order ideology.

Spent more gold to upgrade more corvettes to ironclads.

Turn 279
The Hunnic navy has been destroyed with only 2 losses on my side.
Policy choice: Great Leap Forward
Flight is one turn away from being done. I don't want to waste a free one just to get Atomic Theory for free. Next voting session isn't for another 8 turns and based on how long Refrigeration takes to research, Atomic Theory should be finished naturally (plus I have a GS soon to be born). I will take Refrigeration followed by Electronics. This will allow me to improve the water based oil as well as upgrade to and build battleships. A nice good naval deterrent unit.

Turn 280
More Hunnic ships have been found heading towards Tabriz. Well, just one. But there are two more off their coast.

Turn 281
That one ship, turned out to be a bunch. Lost one more, moving the rest together and take them as a group.
Policy choice from completing The Motherland Calls:
Dictatorship of the Proletariat, help with a culture win if I cannot get United Nations passed and built.

Turn 285
Atomic Theory finished 2 turns before the next vote. Should be able to propose the UN. Researching Computers then Telecommunications in case that fails. With Atomic theory came Uranium. Three sources were found within the empire. One under Amsterdam, one under the Citadel placed on the land bridge and one under a great person improvement next to Groningen. All sources connected without having to improve a thing. Plus it gives a 25% strategic monopoly!

I hate this war. Down to 1 battleship and 3 ironclads in the fray. 3 cruisers on route but still a few turns out. The submarine, they got lucky and rammed it enough making it spring a leak and sink.

Had a wonderful concert in Salzburg put on by the Mongolians. Interesting music.
The GS I thought was soon, wasn't as soon as I thought. I may buy one with faith just to spam through these techs. I want this done!

Speaking of done... I have to pause the game here. Will pick it back up when I have time.

*********************

...so I am back. Finished up all the errands and rather than doing the other stuff I was going to do, decided to just get this done and not have it looming over my shoulder any more. There is no way I will get a cultural victory in 15 turns, still only familiar with Persia. Diplomatic is definitely on the table but probably not in 15 turns either. We will see what happens. Also, because I wasn't aware of the exact path to diplomatic victory I probably wasted some turns teching the wrong way. But lets see how this ends up.

Turn 286
With one turn left, The Netherlands snag Mombasa from me as ally, 7 influence shy. Even if I purchase a diplomat, it will not be available to use until after the vote. Losing them made me lose the coal monopoly too.

Turn 287
Congress vote, proposals are:
Austrian Sphere of Influence Riga
Sanction Austria
Historical Landmarks

According to diplomats (one in every civ but The Huns due to war), 21 yea for Austria to have Riga and 28 to sanction Austria and 24 for Historical Landmarks. Obviously I cannot allow the sanction to go through. 28 plus 3 unaccounted is 31. So I'll throw 31 votes in there and put the remaining 14 on the sphere of influence. I'll let the historical landmarks go where it may. I have plenty of those so it will be helpful if it passes, tho it could hurt if the other civs have a lot too.

I remember mentioning that I wanted to save the GE for building Broadway. Another thing that I didn't realize was changed with VP. It is tied to Industry rather than just a regular wonder. Cannot get it. I can use it on Bletchly Park instead.
I had purchased a GS with faith and it completed computers and put Telecommunications 2 turns from being complete. Too late to propose world Ideology this time around. Will have to try for United Nations and see if that can be built before the next round.

Turn 288
voting results
Historical Landmarks passes with votes from Persia and Arabia
Sanction Austria fails with 25 votes against my 31
Sphere of Influence Riga passes with my 14 votes

Married Samarkand. Need to wait 9 more turns for Riga. Also need to get Mombasa back. That may happen naturally with the trade routes, but I hate being that close. I'll try to squeeze out a diplomat.

I propose United Nations. The world will hate me because of it. Let us see what they propose.

Remembered to use the GE on Bletchly Park, knocked it down to 3 turns from 7

Turn 289
Telecommunications complete, working on the bottom side of the tree to bring military up to speed. Should upgrade some units, if possible.

GA born, used it for a work of art
GM born, going to send it to Persia or Assyria whichever I can get to safely, will try for Persia as they are the farthest out on being influenced.

Linz building Manahattan Project
Salzburg the Foreign Bureau
Vienna is finishing up Bletchly Park
Graz is finishing up a Battleship

I plan to build CN Tower in Vienna

So I looked at what was proposed to be voted on in 10 turns. This is a lovely one.
United Nations by Austria
Travel Ban by The Netherlands
Sanction Austria by Arabia

It is clear that they see me as a cultural threat what with being influential with all but two civs and one of them is pretty darn close. Maybe the diplomatic can slip through? I need to get Prague sooner rather than later. I'm sitting at 47 votes. I want to make sure I have enough. Don't know what the votes needed are, but I recall needing 47 on the huge maps with standard number of civs. So it may be a little less for this smaller size map but I don't want to risk it. So Diplomats where possible and try to get them around The Huns without being killed.

Turn 290
Bletchly Park secured. New spies recruited, placed in Salzburg and Graz as defense.
Building CN Tower in Vienna
Ambassadors in Salzburg and Graz, they're taking 4 turns each, ugh that is a long time.

Turn 291
Policy choice, Hero of the People.
I select a Great Diplomat to use in Prague along side the two diplomats I am building.
I also faith buy another Great Diplomat. I have 7 turns till next vote. Not sure how many it will take to get there. Here is hoping I can get these two there ahead of then. Might not be enough, but we will see.

Turn 292
GS born, finished off Ballistics, Rocketry 1 turn left.
Lost a couple more ships to The Huns, I've taken the fight to just outside their territory. The battleships tho are surviving and doing well against them. More upgraded ones on their way too.

Turn 293
Rocketry finished, Combined Arms 2 turns
Somewhere in here, I've lost the lead in score. Not sure how but it is only about 20 points difference.
With CN Tower finished, tourism output shot up like crazy 1866 currently. Apparently if nothing changes Persia will be influential in 27 turns. Can't get a trade route there due to the sanction against them. Still think diplomatic will be faster than cultural, at least for me. Vote is 5 turns out.

Turn 294
The Huns requested peace. I agreed. I think they did not like my battleships. Moving the fleet back to heal up and upgrade as possible. About 3 turns till I can marry Riga. Just need to keep 1600 gold or so on hand for that.
With completion of the National Visitor Center in Vienna, tourism output jumped to 2466. And now 14 turns to influential with Persia.

It is starting to look like a race between the two victories, diplomatic or cultural. We shall see. It won't be turn 300 like Crab's but it shouldn't be too bad either.

Turn 295
If this game goes longer, I need to do something about this. Antananarivo has a culture quest. Apparently the leader has about 2000 more than me. This quest lasts for 13 more turns. I have a great writer coming up. Think I will use it for a culture boost. That same great writer will fulfill a quest for Byblos and give me 1225 culture. Riga is looking for a great artist. Panama City is offering more influence for diplomatic missions. Should send one or two down there just to boost my level above the others. Mombasa has 12 turns left on science leader. I'm in the lead with 9 techs and they'll give me 4848 tourism for it. Ife has a culture quest too, but only 5 turns remaining. That one I am about 3700 behind. It will be close but it should work out to be enough by using the GW to boost culture and get the Byblos quest. All depends on how it plays out. Good thing is that Ife is one of those sphere of influence CS. Even if I lose, they cannot take them away.
That is it for CS quests aside from spying and capturing a city. I do have a spy in The Netherlands to hopefully do something for some of those quests. One of them is just for one action, hopefully I get that one.

Turn 297
Married Riga with 1 turn to go before the next vote. I'm up to 48 votes.
The musician I had sent toward Persia finally arrived. Over 8000 tourism points applied. Accordingly it says only 3 more turns till influential. I'm building a Hydro Plant in Vienna to boost production. Cultural just might be doable. We will see how the vote turns out. If United Nations gets passed, I can build it in the other cities while Vienna tries to build the cultural building. See which gets completed first...

And I get Prague as ally on this same turn with my various diplomats.

Prague is wanting units, most likely due to having had to be at war with Persia since Persia backstabbed their own vassal Arabia. I sent them a Lancer that had been given by one of my vassals. It had no promotions beyond what it could initially get. I don't feel bad about giving it up. Extra influence is extra influence.

Turn 298
I just hit influential with Persia. I had the great writer born as well as a great merchant. Those two gave a big amount of tourism boost each.

Citizen Earth Protocol will take 13 turns to complete in Vienna. Possibly less if I allow the Hydro Plant to complete in 2 turns. I will risk that and see how the vote turns out.

So, how should I vote? Let us see what our options are:
United Nations, Travel Ban, Sanction Austria
The first will help us with the diplomatic win.
The second will reduce the tourism modifier and possibly cause a loss in the cultural win
The third is bad but all it does it removes trade routes and not allow any more trade. The game is almost over no matter which win we get (diplomatic or cultural). I also have most trade routes with CS anyway and I can still do routes with my vassals. Not a big loss at this stage to be sanctioned.
There are 26 votes with 3 unaccounted for against my interests on all three. Hoping that they will split among them. I will put 30 on United Nations, If they dump all 29 there, I will still get it. The rest, I'll put on Travel Ban. I will live with the sanction if it happens.

eh, changed my mind ever so slightly.
30 for United Nations
18 against Travel Ban
a token 1 vote against Sanction Austria

Turn 299
That was an interesting voting result. Seems that they are most concerned with a cultural win than a diplomatic win. Sanction Austria failed with just my single nay vote. United Nations Passes with just my 30 votes. Travel Ban Passes with all their votes against my 18. Very interesting. Could have put 1 vote yes on UN, 1 vote no on sanction and the rest against travel ban. Oh well, what can we do? It affects everyone so, the only issue is if the reduced tourism can out do the non-reduced culture growth.

And thanks to the GW culture boost, I can pick a policy. Just in time too.
Cultural Revolution. +34% tourism to other Order civs. Remember Persia picked Order. This will counteract the Travel Ban for them as well as Arabia.

I could try something that boosts production in some way, to either build the Citizen Earth Protocol faster or the United Nations faster. But ensuring that the tourism modifier stays up ensures the cultural win, if that happens first.

Proposed World Ideology Order, a back up should the cultural fail or the UN not get built in a timely manner. Adjusting all cities to build UN except for Vienna. It will finish out that Hydro Plant and start on the Citizen Earth Protocol.

Adjusted all cities for this final push to work as many tiles as possible and to only work engineer specialists. Get as much production as possible. Only exception is Vienna and that is because she has so many citizens that I could work every tile, fill every engineer slot and most the scientist slots.

Salzburg is the only one not switching to UN this turn because its broadcast tower will be done by next turn. It will go straight into UN.

Turn 300
There goes Prague. There was no stopping Persia. They went ahead and captured it even tho ally changed. The unit I sent, was sent back to me. Did not know that would happen.

So just one turn in on UN and it is 52% complete with 1094 contributed from me. That means someone else (probably Persia) is dumping a lot of production into it too. I'll get 3rd place for sure. Hopefully 2nd. Doesn't really matter as it triggers the special vote.

Meanwhile Citizen Earth Protocol is going to take 10 turns. I'd be better off putting Vienna's 549.78 production into UN and hoping for 1st place.

All remaining city states are allied and married. My number of votes rest at 47 now. As a result of this, I can upgrade my military without concern for how much gold is available. Will need it if someone decides to do a last minute distraction war.

Turn 301
I knew Persia had to be putting a lot into the UN. They practically doubled my input. They got first, I got second. No idea if the special vote still takes place when the AI gets first place. I suppose we will see soon enough.


9 turns on Citizen Earth Protocol
Cultural is our backup win at this point.

Turn 302
Persia captures the Arabian capital. We enter the Atomic era for voting purposes. World leader vote is put up. No brainer here. I have 60. It is all going in for Austria.

Turn 303
I got excited and thought that vote was for diplomatic win. Nope just vote for atomic era leader, bummer. Would have been great to hand in a turn 303 diplomatic win. Really need to understand how to do a certain win before trying for that win. It is disheartening to think you've got it only to find out there are more hoops.

So the UN only unlocks the vote, looks like that won't be for another 18 turns. Citizen Earth Protocol will be done in 7. Cultural win it will be.

Faith buying a GS for the heck of it. Get as many techs under my belt as possible. Researching Ecology. Spend the GE on Sydney Opera House for the heck of it.

Turn 305
Policy choice: Peace Land Bread
Just clicking through till Citizen Earth Protocol is complete.
Used GE on Sydney Opera House last turn in Graz to take it from 13 down to 8. Spent cash on it to take it further down to 4. It will be complete 1 turn before Citizen Earth Protocol. Yay, one more wonder under our belt. Satellites finished as a result too. Putting Apollo Program into Salzburg, it will be done in 4 turns too.

Turn 306
Diplomats all over trying to steal my city states. It doesn't matter any more. Cultural win is in the bag. Why bother keeping up with the CS? I might cash buy one to reclaim Mombasa if I have enough cash before it is over, just for the heck of it.

Look at that quest from Mombasa, build 13 airports! I only have 5 cities that I can control. A waste of a quest.


5 turns to the next vote, 4 till Citizen Earth Protocol is done. Won't need to worry about that one.

Turn 309
Expended a faith bought GS, completed one tech and got The Internet down to one turn.
Sydney Opera House complete, get a free policy. What shall we pick for the last turn of the game? Spaceflight Pioneers
Expend the GS from the policy, complete The Internet. Boosts tourism for the last turn.
Threw the Great Firewall in Graz and waste the GE on it. Done in 16 turns.

If the game weren't going to be over so soon, I wouldn't be doing some of this.

Turn 310
Cultural victory

Spoiler :

and a picture of the main Austrian lands after clicking the 'wait just one more turn' button

Thoughts:
Had I known the correct way to get to a diplomatic victory, I could have tech'd correctly and possibly gotten the UN proposed a session earlier. That could have put the first vote for leader around the same time that the Citizen Earth Protocol was being built rather than about 10 turns after completion. Could have also gotten the cultural win earlier had I focused more on the culture related buildings. As it was, I had to wait some turns after getting Telecommunications before being able to build Citizen Earth Protocol.

Still, I feel I did well this time around.

I did lose units in the fight with The Huns but not too many compared to that fight with The Netherlands. My issue with the naval battle is that I did not have a lot of ships together to begin with. It wasn't till I got more brought over that things started to turn around. The most helpful thing was being able to upgrade the cruisers into battleships. Once I got three battleships near The Huns border, they gave up the fight real quick.

I also managed to ally and marry every remaining CS outside of Prague which was killed off just after allying with them. That gave me plenty of votes should the diplomatic have gone through.

For the curious find attached my turn after victory save.

 

[tu_79]

Ok, here goes mine.

Since I don't think I can do better, I just wanted to see how fast I could get science victory. If I could redo some turns, maybe I would have grasped 2-3 turns.

Spoiler Science victory :

I did little but focus on science. I didn't move units around but when attacked. I went Freedom, then Imperialism (I wasn't sure how strong would be the AI attacking last turns). I purchased most SS parts, but could have purchased them even earlier if I had focused a bit more on gold, or upgraded fewer units.

I think this was a great learning experience.

 

[CrabHelmet]

@Tzar Sasha - that's a really solid victory. I think the only way you could have changed it by beelining for Telecoms faster, so that you could have proposed World Ideology one Congress earlier. That would have shaved 10 turns off your end time. Didn't matter in this game, but could be crucial to you if you step up to higher difficulties.

@tu_79 - that's also a really fast science victory. Not sure I could beat it, actually. Don't have much to say. 315 is blazing fast. Does confirm Scientific was the weakest, though, since Diplomatic can be won on turn 311. In retrospect, I think in my part 3 I was planting Academies too late. The last 2-3 Academies should have been bulbed, and I might have been able to get Telecoms for the Word Congress before that, knocking it down to turn 290ish. But it was too late by the time we picked up from turn 251.

Well done guys - I really enjoyed that, and actually learnt a lot, especially from tu's religion. What do you fancy for the next topic? I know some people in Quick Questions/Quick Answers were talking about dealing with Isolated starts. I was thinking of suggesting Polynesia and rerolling until we get an isolated map. I think Polynesia is a good Civ for learning very isolated starts because it sort of gives you a "hint" as to what to do (e.g. explore as soon as possible) without reducing the early game to beelining Sailing, which is a bit dull.

Do let me know if you have any other suggestions.

We could also do a war-game, if @Tzar Sasha wants to practice troop movement. Late-game warfare can be very different but it can be hard to make it to the late-game a lot, so people often aren't practiced with it.

 

[tu_79]

The idea behind isolated start is showing how to deal with it. Playing Polynesia is cheating.

Many people think, when they finally meet the rest of the world, that this game is already lost. Maybe we can show them wrong?

Find an isolated continent, with at most one other civ, and a couple of city states. Let's play a warmonger this time. Preferably one that does not miss the unique unit while isolated. How about Zulus?

Edit. By the way, I think I need to improve my unit management too.

 

[Tzar Sasha]

If you are going to do war, why not include religion? I've never actually tried to tie religion around going warmongering. I usually just ended up stuck warmongering because the AI wouldn't stop wanting to fight.

And can we wait for the newest beta? I saw that Gazebo posted some new changes earlier today.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Aztecs are "fun" for isolated warmongers with nevertheless useful UUs. You can easily be tricked into excess growth because of their UA etc. But I'll have a think.

 

[CrazyG]

I really enjoyed reading this, great job gentlemen!

Polynesia is an interesting choice to me because he has a lot more variety in decisions, especially compared to the Aztec.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Yeah, I don't think isolated Polynesia is necessarily cheating. In any isolated game, once I know I'm isolated, I rush Sailing, find someone else, and revert to normal. I still have to do the tough catch-up. Polynesia does that with a more interesting early-game. Willing to be overruled, but I do feel it lends for good practice.

 

[tu_79]

Yeah, I don't think isolated Polynesia is necessarily cheating. In any isolated game, once I know I'm isolated, I rush Sailing, find someone else, and revert to normal. I still have to do the tough catch-up. Polynesia does that with a more interesting early-game. Willing to be overruled, but I do feel it lends for good practice.

Though I agree with Polynesia being interesting, such game would not help those players that especifically asked how to deal with it.

 

[tu_79]

Next one should be released, as Owlbebach suggested, with a modpack.

I need akamal's Promotion Flags, and I highly appreciate Improved city view and trade route filters.

Also, I'd like to point out this mod:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/map-labels.530637/
I don't know if it is fully compatible, but I've seen some players using it, and I'd like to use it too. It gives auto labels to some terrain features, making it more epic to narrate what is going on. No more 'I'm putting a few units in that forest tile north of Rome', but rather 'I'm placing some archers surrounding lake Ness'. Players can even add their own labels, wish them so.
I think I've seen it used by @Asterix Rage , is it?

 

[CrabHelmet]

I am reluctant to use anything beyond the absolute vanilla VP since it creates a slight disincentive for participation, no matter how small.

 

[tu_79]

How about a weird vanilla map? Maybe fractal or highlands.

As for civs, something slightly combat oriented, if not a full warmonger. Persia or Spain.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Spain defeats isolated. I agree Fractal could be very interesting. The only thing I am waiting on is the potential of a new hotfix very shortly, as I think the current one has a barb problem.