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The Contrast Photojournals I: Austria

Discussion in 'Playthroughs and Photojournals' started by CrabHelmet, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. Tzar Sasha

    Tzar Sasha Tzar of Nowheresville

    Joined:
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    453
    Location:
    The Frozen Tundra
    I'll defer to the consensus. I'm the least knowledgeable in VP and bound to screw up no matter which one we use.
     
  2. void_genesis

    void_genesis Prince

    Joined:
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    429
    Sorry I haven't gotten to play. TBH the variant mod list and peoples reports of difficulty with it put me off playing around with different files. Is it possible to use the plain current VP mod list for future versions of this challenge?
     
  3. Tzar Sasha

    Tzar Sasha Tzar of Nowheresville

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Messages:
    453
    Location:
    The Frozen Tundra
    We used the Full VP with EUI (not 43 civ) from the 8.19 beta. You can get the installer here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-beta-version-august-19th-8-19.635578/
    We are not using the hotfix posted a few pages later on the linked thread as we do not wish to potentially introduce compatibility issues.
    The save file we used for turns 0-90 can be found here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ournals-i-austria.635637/page-2#post-15200866
    Early confusion was due to our varied personal setups and figuring out what we needed and did not need.
     
    CrabHelmet likes this.
  4. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    i would love to join, but it Does not work for me...
    You can launch another one with my save of Venice if you want. I already playing it and i'm in Industrial and that is a very interesting map i guarantee it.
     
  5. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Oct 25, 2017
    Messages:
    732
    I changed that when I realised. The present save, which is in both the edited OP and the link @Tzar Sasha provided, uses simply 8/19 Vox Populi with EUI (and not the 43-Civ version). There are no additional mods or any other changes from this, the default version of VP. I am confident you should be able to access it, since both @tu_79 and @Tzar Sasha could.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  6. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Spoiler Turns 1-11 :


    An interesting start. Having Coffee nearby is certainly nice for Austria, since the building that improves Coffee is Austria's Unique Bulding, the Coffee House. Sugar is not a bad secondary luxury, either, since it also requires Plantations. Unfortunately, it's on Forest, so I'd have to go via Bronze Working, but there are worse starts, luxury-wise.

    The more immediate problem is poor yields. If I settle on the spot, after I hit my 2nd Citizen, I have nothing decent to work on. I think there are two choices here. I can move one tile to the north-east, or one tile east. Moving one tile to the north-east seems better in the immediate future - I can work the Sugar tile, then the Coffee tile, then the Wheat tile, with a City on a River, putting me on 8 Food, 4 Production, 1 Gold by 3 Citizens. One tile to the east, I could work the two Coffee tiles, and then a generic Plains tile, meaning I'd be on 7 Food, 4 Production. However, I do like to settle on Hills for the protection, and in the long-run, the northern tile takes on a lot more tundra, as far as I can work out.

    To help me make my decision, I move my Pathfinder to provide better visibility. If there's a good tile on the other side of the hill, that makes a difference.

    I find the coast, and now face a difficult choice. I find the coast very tempting, because Statecraft is very powerful for Austria. I will be maintaining aiming to generate and maintain a lot of City-State allies, and Statecraft both helps with that and helps me benefit from it - Wonders cost less policies, Quests give more Influence, I get bonus strategic resources, the works. Statecraft is best leveraged as a coastal capital, because it depends a lot on trade routes, gets bonuses for trade routes to the Capital and/or Holy City, and sea routes are easier to set-up and have longer distances.

    Downsides? Well, firstly, that's two turns to get there. I have to lose one turn regardless anyway, since my starting tile is no good, but an extra turn hurts my Wonder chances even more. Secondly, the starting tiles are slightly less good - once I'm through working the two Coffee tiles, it will take my culture a while to reach Sugar; I'll only have Hill tiles/Coastal tiles. Austria can also take Artistry, and use the UA a little more slowly but still powerfully for a Cultural victory.

    In the end, I decided there are too many unknown unknowns. I'll go for the coastal settle for the sake of it - it's very early, I can recover from a suboptimal decision. It just makes the game more interesting.

    The fact my Pathfinder finds some Marble in the third ring of my capital helps my decision - they're good tiles.



    Say hello to Vienna! In my view, Austria is best played as a Tradition Civ. Late-game Austria can produce a Great Person every other turn with enough Marriages. With Tradition's Splendour, you end up producing almost limitless Culture, and if you also grabbed Sankore, Science. Austria does not have many toys to play with in the early game, and needs to get up and running as soon as possible, for which Tradition's opener is really powerful.

    I think Authority Austria struggles a bit, because as an Authority Civ, you want to be demanding Tribute a lot. Otherwise, you'll lag on policies, which hurts Austria a lot late game. Similarly, Progress Austria suffers from having to develop a lot of Cities, which means spending gold, which Austria wants for marriages, ideally.

    Since I'm going Tradition, I am leading with Monument. I can use Sovereignty to catch up on Faith. This is a big advantage for Tradition, since you can push out borders faster.

    For Tech, I'm going with Pottery. Tradition Civs are always in a good position to have a crack at Stonehenge, and I think it might be quite a good Wonder for me. At least at this very early stage, I'm looking at Springtime as a Pantheon, but that is quite Faith-slow, needing Markets established to really get moving. If not, well, I'd almost always take Pottery second anyway, so no big loss.



    On turn 5, I find both Byblos and Antananarivo on the same turn! The former is Maritime and Friendly, the latter Mercantile and Neutral. Byblos gives me 15 Food, but I get nothing from Antananarivo - which means they must have been encountered by someone else. Presumably from the north or east, since whoever it was didn't bump into Byblos. I file that away into "good to know".

    To the south, our first Barbarian. I might try and lure him next to Byblos borders and take him out with my Pathfinder, on the Amber tile, for some early influence.

    The next turn, he attacks my Pathfinder, who levels up. I take Survivalist - there's not a huge amunt of Forested terrain around here, and in any event, I'd like a defensive Medic.

    The next turn, the Barbarian runs off - not sure why - and the Netherlands show up. In my view, William is a pretty good neighbour. He's not hugely likely to go war, he's usually friendly, and he's loyal if you do become friends. I'll aim to keep good relations with him if he is not too close.



    The same turn, I find the Fountain of Youth. This is a really, really good Natural Wonder. It gets a City off the groundd quickly, provides a healthy amount of Science, and will be great for any defensive efforts I might need. I will definitely be looking to settle this way. ...or I would, except Mombasa will get it on their first culture expansion, for sure. That's... annoying, to be certain. Still, a new City-State, who is Friendly and Mercantile, and they give me 15 Food, so I'm not worried about Civs to my west as much. Just to the north of Mombasa, I find my first barb camp. It is close enough I think Mombasa will clear it soon, if I don't send assistance.



    ...and this is my first "oh, ****" moment. Mongolia is Austria's mortal enemy, worse than any other Civ going. They snatch the City-States you need, and are strongest in the early-game when you are at your weakest. I need to establish their general direction ASAP. If they're to the west of me, I'll need an army quick.


    Spoiler Turns 12-21 :


    On turn 12, I make a few decisions. Firstly, I purchase the Plains tile to the north-west of Vienna for 45 Gold. I don't like early purchases as Austria, but the inner-ring tiles were not worth working at this early stage. My borders will expand next turn, and they will prioritize that Sugar tile now they can reach it.

    Secondly, I take Animal Husbandry as my next tech. I want to head for Military Theory, and fast. The sooner I can get some Horsemen up and running with a potential Mongolia nearby, the better.

    Third, I start Stonehenge. Thanks to the Mercantile City-States and my two Coffee tiles, I have a strong population which is only going to get better after Tradition. With the two hills in the inner ring, I have a fair amount of Production going. Stonehenge is quite close to a "free" Wonder. It is basically a Shrine with a Council on top, then +1 Culture and Great Engineer Points just for fun. The Production cost is only ever so slightly higher than a Shrine and a Council, so the only real downside is a) you could lose the race, and b) it slightly delays Settlers. There's also c), it pushes up the cost of later Wonders, but in my view it makes up for that for reasons we'll see later.

    On turn 12, someone managed to take their Pantheon. By "someone", I mean Spain. They get a large amount of Faith for settling a City, and found about 5 turns after building their Shrine - so, turns 13-14. Nobody else can reach it quite that fast, except obviously India. This is good information to know. In my view, Spain is one of the best Civs in VP. All Civs are incredibly good, but perfect balance is obviously impossible and to me, Isabella is that one slight fraction above much of the crowd. They are especially dangerous on Continents maps. They can get an early Religion and convert their entire continent easily, and their Conquistador UU means they can aggressively settle overseas. I will need to be prepared for a tough mid-game.

    As predicted, my borders expand to take the Sugar tile. I'm set to finish Stonehenge about turn 29. This is a little slow - most games, I think it is built about turns 26-28. Hopefully, my next Citizen works that time down, I'm worried I miscalculated.



    Some good news. Firstly, I've found Krakatoa! Another great Natural Wonder, it gets a City up and running quickly, then keeps it fed with Science into the late-game. Unfortunately, the immediate vicinity is quite bare and I will probably need to wait for Trapping to see if there are Fish.

    Second bit of good news is that Mongolia is not in the immediate vicinity, there's coast all along my west. Again, a slight worrying note is that this means he is probably to the south, near the City-States, but hey, better them than me if it comes down to it!

    A few turns later, my next Citizen is born, and Stonehenge is looking at turn 27 completion. Getting better, but I still want a little more safety...


    Spoiler Turns 22-39 :


    Animal Husbandry reveals inner-ring Sheep and middle-ring Cattle. Not bad. I take the Wheel as my next tech, as it gets me to Military Theory. Turn 25, and I hit my first Policy. I go with Tradition. It cuts Stonehenge down further, to a turn 26 completion. I should get it now.



    And indeed I do. This makes my Pantheon choice very easy - I choose Beauty. Beauty and Stonehenge between them give a lot of Great Engineer points, and I'll get more from Tradition's Justice policy. That means I can pick up a fair amount of Wonders for Beauty. Played right, Stonehenge into Beauty is one of the fastest ways of getting a Religion.

    With Stonehenge done, I can at last move on to a Settler, which will take 7 turns.

    Before the Settler finishes, I reach Military Theory. The pace has been fast enough I am considering Temple of Artemis - the growth bonus would be a nice cherry on top of Tradition.

    here

    I like Strategic view for evaluating City placement, it gives you a very nice and clear overview of the advantages and disadvantages of particular spots.

    The tile highlighted in gold to the south is, IMO, clearly the best spot for a second city. It is on a hill, so it is defensible and has good early production. It helps define my borders, making the City-States a natural barrier for me and allowing me to shut off easy access to the territory behind me, so I can backfill later. It connects two Horse tiles for four Horses, and three Cofee, which is enough for a Monopoly. It has not one, but two 3 Food / 1 Production tiles in the innermost ring. That's some good growth! It also allows me to do something neat much later on, which I won't say now in case it doesn't work out.

    Downsides? Lake doesn't scale well into the late-game and some of the outer tiles will be taken by City-States.

    The tile highlighted in silver to the west is the next best spot. Being a tradition Civ, I want to found the minimal number of cities to lock down my territorial area. This spot and the other one and Vienna, with the three tile rule, shut down all this area - that's good. Again, I can connect three Coffee, and two Horse tiles for six Horses. I also get access to Pearls, and that coast, without being overly exposed. Downsides? There's no good tiles in the inner ring, so initial growth will be slow, and it doesn't help set up good borders for me.

    To the north, Vienna has started a Warrior, which I'll need to keep that Archer off my back. Thankfully, I had pulled my Pathfinder back, who I use to harry the Archer. My Settler is going to head off rather slowly and carefully for the spot I identified. I don't like it missing an escort, but on open terrain, one step at a time, it should be feasible.

    Turn 34 and we get our second policy. I picked Justice - I now have an impressive 7 Great Engineer points, which is all adding up. I am not struggling for Faith, so no need for Sovereignty. When my Warrior finishes, Vienna immediately heads into another one. I don't need to settle the second City so immediately, so I prioritize protection.



    Say hello to Salzburg! I prefer to lead with Monument over Shrine. In my view, by the time you find a Religion, you are normally generating e.g. 24 Faith per turn. A shrine gives you 2 Faith per turn, and if you build it before Monument it comes maybe 12 turns earlier. That's 24 Faith, or... 1 turn later on. That is, it isn't a huge delay, and early Culture is so important. Vienna can start their next Settler now.



    Mombasa decides they want me to find Genghis, and they're willing to give me a lot of Science for it. I do have a rough idea of where Genghis is. I think the Netherlands are to the east of Salzburg, since I found them almost immediately after meeting Antananarivo, who had already been met. This means Genghis is probably a bit further on from that, past Antananarivo-ish. I set my Pathfinder off immediately - that's a big reward.

    By contrast, Antananarivo wants a Great Admiral. In my opinion, this is a really bad mechanic and @Gazebo should have a look at it. It is effectuvely impossible to generate a Great Admiral for any Civ not called Portugal for, like, about 70 turns, at the absolute minimum. I'd need to build a navy, need someone else to build a navy, need to declare war on that someone else with a navy, and allow for several defeated units. This is just a waste of a quest, not fun for me as a player or strategically interesting.


    Spoiler Turns 40-58 :




    Incredibly, I meet Belgrade, a Militaristic/Hostile City-State. Right now, I'm hoping their Warrior saves my Pathfinder's bacon, and thankfully they oblige. Vienna gets started on the Temple of Artemis, set to finish turn 55, which seems fast enough - 55 is about the perfect mark to get it.



    My third city is Graz. My settle wiped out a camp where that Archer was. I simply did not have the military force to clear it, I am far too low on Warriors. My next tech is Calendar - I'd like to get started on Plantations soon. The same turn, Byblos also demands to find Mongolia. They're offering 191 Science, on top of the 140 from Mombasa, for a cool 331 Science! Even better, I find Mongolia this turn, although the yields don't come until next turn.

    The Science is so much it smashes me through Calendar, gives me Mathematics for free, and reduces Mining to two turns. Byblos becomes my Ally at 63 Influence, although that's obviously not a very permanent state of affairs. Salzburg finishes its Monument not long after and I move on to a Shrine.

    Turn 51 and I get a Great Engineer in the Capital. No need to waste them on Artemis, though, it is nearly done. Turn 54, and I get to Sovereignty from Tradition. I'll move something on to the Artist Specialist as soon as the Temple of Artemis is done.



    I reach the Temple of Artemis! On the same turn, I also hit the Sovereignty policy. This means I have enough Policies for the Roman Forum. I wasn't planning to try and get it, but with the help of my trusty Great Engineer, the Roman Forum is constructed the next turn. The Great Diplomat is put on hold for the time being - I don't have the Gold to make good use of it. Still, useful to have, certainly. To the south, my Warrior clears out a well-placed barb camp, and suddenly both Mombasa and Byblos are Allies again! That lovely, lovely food! Vienna starts on a final Warrior. With one per City, I can relax on the Barbarian front - I've been really understaffed early on. Once the Warrior is done, Vienna switches to Workers. Time to (finally) get this Coffee online!


    Spoiler Turns 59-89 :




    Turn 59, and Genghis declares war on Antananarivo. I need an army, and soon - he will be on my doorstep very shortly.



    I have been far too lax on barbarians early on, and I am really paying the price at this point. My cities are raided a few times, and I lose a little gold and science.



    Clearing another camp further pulls Byblos into my orbit. Even better, Mombasa wants Salt, which William has and will give me 278 Gold for it - enough to acquire my first Marriage. I make William a straight trade of Coffee in exchange for Salt and 2 GPT. The result is our first Marriage! If I'd had a little more Influence with Belgrade, I would have preferred them for the military units, but this was the next best thing. Amazingly, Antananarivo is offering me about 380 Gold this turn in exchange for Amber, which is Byblos' Luxury. I just hope Byblos improves it before Genghis does his thing to Antananarivo.

    Vienna starts on a Barracks - time to get a Military, methinks. I hit Ceremony shortly, and start on the Science Specialist.

    My current aim is to build one of every sort of unit, then hit Terracotta. Boom, instant army, and I'll be prepped against Genghis. I start with a Horseman, which is a useful unit in any event. William trades me 5 GPT and Olives for Coffee; I accept.



    A camp is destroyed for Belgrade and I get a Great General with the points. I have a plan for this fellow, and set him towards Salzburg.

    Meanwhile, after a Horseman and a Skirmisher are built in the Capital, I start a Settler. I don't want Mongolia or the Netherlands to sneak in and out a coastal City above me or by Krakatoa, so I shall prepare my own. Trapping reveals this area is actually more than alright - now I don't feel so bad about the fact I probably have to put a City here.



    I nick the Fountain of Youth from Mombasa, and get some extra Sugar while I'm at it! The best bit is, Mombasa remains Friends with me, only being downgraded from Allies. I didn't have the Gold to have a Marriage any time soon, so it seems for the best.

    Someone founds on the same turn I get my Great Prophhet! They picked Cathedrals as one of their beliefs. I'm annoyed about this on two grounds. First, I wanted that later on, as my second follower belief. Second, I think picking a building for your first belief is almost always suboptimal. You need the early Faith to purchase Missionaries. Either you buy early buildings and slow your religion, or you spread your religion and the usual rate and receive no bonuses for it. So this decision was bad for both the AI and me.

    Incidentally, that "someone" is the Huns. The religion was Tengriism, which for the AI is the preferred pick of the Huns and Mongolia, and I know Mongolia did not found. The Huns are, like Spain, quite scary snowballers, and they also like preying on City-States. Anyway, I end play here. I think I'm in a pretty good position.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
    Legen and wistak like this.
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Wow, that's much better than ours. Period.
    You have one less city, but already married, religion is next door, and have one more wonder. Even more, you managed to take a natural wonder from Mombasa. You founded Graz exactly where I placed Linz, but you are settling much more distant than I dared. You even could fulfill some quests (that I admit I wasn't paying too much attention since usually most of them are protection pleas and I had not the army to protect anyone). This was enough to prevent Mongolia from capturing any City State, apparently.
     
  8. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    My thoughts on @Tzar Sasha's play.

    I think your early build-order might not have been the most strategic. Your second city was really badly delayed by the fact you went Worker -> Council -> Pyramids. Your Worker didn't even have a huge amount of tiles to improve until Construction came online; I'd have kept it for after the Pyramids and gone Settler -> Warrior -> Pyramids instead. It looks like you needed more help with barbs early on.

    In addition, I don't think I would have picked the Pyramids. I normally only take it on heavily Forested starts or when I really need my Monopoly *now* and not later - e.g. the Religious Monopolies like Tobacco or the Cultural ones. Here, you have lots of flat plains which don't take a huge improvement time, and Coffee's Monopoly is definitely good, but I'm not sure I'd feel the need to rush it ASAP.

    In your situation, I would also have picked Beauty, in my view you made the right choice. I think the two other strong choices are Springtime and Sun, but because your second city was late, it would take a while to get to the Faith parts of those two. Beauty got you on the ball immediately.

    You were very free and easy with your Gold early on, regularly buying down Production. This is good play with most Civs, but at least in my view, Austria wants to conserve gold for marriages. Expenditures have to be near essential, at least early on.

    Petra was an interesting choice - I'd never have thought of that. I actually think it is a rather good choice - an extra trade route is really useful synergy for Statecraft, and it allowed you to complete your quest with Mombasa fast. Honestly it's probably actually one of the better early Wonders for Austria, I just never would have attempted it on this start and am impressed by your gumption.

    Overall, I think your play got better and better towards the end, but your first 35ish turns or so were odd. A new city adds +2 Culture in almost no time from a Monument, but adds to Social Policy cost by 10%. It's not until +21 Culture you make a loss from a new City. Same maths for Science. For early-game Tradition, I think the break even is normally three Cities. The earlier a City is founded, normally the better - I only delay Cities for Wonders, really. Your second City being so late really hurt, I think, even afyer you picked up later.

    My thoughts on @tu_79's play.

    I think Monument -> Warrior was odd. If you're really that concerned, you can have your Pathfinder hover around your Capital. It meant you used early gold on the Shrine when you might not have needed to.

    I think your tech logic was spot on. You can see the point we diverged - I wanted to get to Horsemen faster at the time, went through Military Theory, and so was forced to go for Artemis. You felt comfortable with Chariots, and decided to hit Construction early for Mausoleum. I think you probably made the right decision. Mausoleum is a better Wonder in this situation, and in retrospect, I didn't use any Horsemen super early, that was just because I was paranoid about Mongolia when I didn't know where he was. I think you were leading me around this point and at turn... roughly 40-45? I think I'd have rather been in your position than mine.

    Sovereignty first made sense for you, since you lead with Monument and did not take Stonehenge, so you needed it to catch up. Would have done the same in your position.

    I thought Ancestor Worship was an odd choice. I've never thought of it as overwhelmingly Faith heavy early on - I'd worry about missing a Religion. I'm not sure why you didn't consider Beauty? I think me picking Beauty accounts for 50% of the difference between us - I could just spam through Wonders fairly carefree, you have needed to invest a lot more time in. The other 50% was dumb luck - that free Science early on from the Find Mongolia quests gave me so much more leeway than you, I can't take fair credit for that.

    We had the same idea about Terracotta Army, I think it is the right one. Austria is so weak early-game you can't put that much towards an army, and Terracotta is so good at plugging those gaps.

    I think you are in a pretty good position, all in all. You'll want to be trying to take Byblos off Genghis soon, though, so you'll have to drop everything else and focus on an army.

    ==============================================

    I won't vote for mine to avoid bias, so I think my vote is for @tu_79. Being that close to the Terracotta Army is the real dealbreaker here; @tu_79 will have a viable army right when he needs it, whereas I think @Tzar Sasha is now very vulnerable for an Immortal level game and doesn't have an easy way to fix that.

    EDIT: I was so busy screenshotting I forgot to move my Citizens around. Consequently, I've missed 5 turns of working Fountain of Youth, meaning 10 Food and Science less. Not disastrous, but just warning people who want to experiment with my save to fix Salzburg's Citizens.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  9. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Ok, I'm not in a reaaaally bad spot, but I'd rather continue with Crab's savegame. This has more rewards from city states that might have been good luck or not, but the thing is that the rewards were obtained, and Austria is much better thanks to this.
     
  10. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Maybe you all can just throw some facts to judge? I mean in the end what matters is how many policies you have, what wonders you have and what buildings you've built in your cities and what techs did you research
     
  11. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    @Tzar_Sasha has:

    3 Tradition Policies (and Opener)
    8 Techs
    20 turns from Religion

    Vienna (9 pops)
    - Pyramids
    - Council
    - Granary
    - Herbalist
    - Monument
    - Shrine

    Salzburg (4 pops)
    - Petra
    - Monument
    - Shrine

    Graz (4 pops)
    - Council
    - Monument
    - Shrine

    Linz (1 pop)

    3 Warriors, 1 Spearman, 3 Archers, 1 Pathfinder

    @tu_79 has:

    3 Tradition Policies (and Opener)
    10 Techs
    24 turns from Religion

    Vienna (9 pops)
    - Mausoleum
    - Council
    - Granary
    - Herbalist
    - Shrine
    - Monument
    - Stone Works

    Salzburg (6 pops)
    - Council
    - Granary
    - Monument
    - Shrine
    - Walls
    - Well

    Graz (4 pops)
    - Council

    Linz (1 pop)

    2 Warriors, 1 Chariot Archer, 1 Archer, 1 Pathfinder (about to finish Terracotta Army, so in practical terms, 3 Warriors, 2 Chariot Archers, 2 Archer, 1 Pathfinder)
    WAR with Mongolia

    I have:

    3 Tradition Policies (and Opener)
    12 Techs
    0 turns from Religion

    Vienna (11 pops)
    - Stonehenge
    - Temple of Artemis
    - Roman Forum
    - Barracks
    - Council
    - Herbalist
    - Monument
    - Shrine

    Salzburg (8 pops)
    - Barracks
    - Council
    - Monument
    - Shrine
    - Well
    - Fountain of Youth

    Graz (6 pops)
    - Council
    - Monument
    - Shrine
    - Well

    1 Horseman, 1 Skirmisher, 1 Pathfinder, 3 Warriors, 1 Spearman, 1 Great Diplomat, 1 Great Engineer
    MARRIAGE with Byblos, ALLY with Antananarivo

    Everyone has the same general techs (progressively towards Construction), but I don't have Markets yet, unlike the other two.
     
  12. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Well i guess it is pretty obvious who have done that better. Though with Austria this is very luck-dependent early on because City-States quest rewards are very big
     
  13. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I agree, I got quite lucky. I think the more interesting question is: suppose tu wasn't near the Terracotta Army. Would you rather have his save or Tzar Sasha's? Slightly less techs in exchange for a slightly more fullsome army? I think Petra is plausibly better than Mausoleum, too. Terracotta is the deal-breaker, but I think without that it is an interesting and difficult choice.
     
  14. Tzar Sasha

    Tzar Sasha Tzar of Nowheresville

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    Obviously CrabHelmet's game is much farther along and at a turn earlier too. This may be due primarily to the city state quests giving him such a large advantage in science. But that is playing to Austria's UA. Roman Forum is good for Austria too. You can use it to help great great diplomats. If you have the gold on hand you can get the instant influence points and hope you maintain ally status for the 10 turns. Or you can use it to plant an embassy. Either way you get a vote from them. If you do both, two votes.

    Even tu_79's game is in a better place. Though I do not like the war that is already in progress. Terracotta will definitely help get the army needed.

    As for mine, sounds like Petra is the only thing going for it. It was a wasted wonder as far as tile yields go. Its only benefit was the caravan to establish that trade route quest and the extra trade slot above the normal max. War may be just around the corner with no Terracotta to help it out.

    If I have to decide, I'd go with CrabHelment's save. After all the purpose of this first run was to stop at turn 90 or when getting the first Great Prophet. He got the prophet. He met the early requirements, everything else is incidental.
     
  15. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    So, objectively, what was my biggest mistake? Ancestor worship instead of Goddess of Beauty? I'm soon to have extra 6 science from the pantheon (too late, if you ask me). Not saving gold for a marriage? In my experience, I was never able to ally a city state so early.

    Fight against Mongolia is unavoidable, and the sooner the better, before it shows unique units. Also, city placement counts. I really dislike that tundra city. The extra trade route might be better than Mausoleum, but not that much. Vienna being coastal is a big difference, though. Thinking it twice, I think I would place it coastal too.
     
  16. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    bear in mind I don't actually think I'm much better than you to be giving advice - that's why I was hoping @Owlbebach or @CrazyG or @ElliotS might provide commentary on our choices. I got two early City-state Allies and over 300 Science from one sort of Quest, it was silly and I've actually raised the issue in the balance section. Consequently, stuff I say might well be wrong!

    In my opinion, I think that Vienna should have been coastal. It makes an enormous difference for Statecraft, but I don't think that has caused much divergence by this point. It will later, though.

    I think your Pantheon has probably held you back the most. +4 Science right now is quite close to trivial, I think, and it isn't netting you very much Faith at all. I actually think there are a lot of much better Pantheons - Springtime and Open Sky both come to mind. If you'd priortised Workers onto Pastures/beelining Markets (after Mausoleum) respectively, then about now Open Sky would be giving you +21 Gold, +7 Faith, about +7 Culture I think, and the Faith is available very early. Springtime would be giving you +18 Gold, +12 Faith, and +9 Food, but would have taken a bit longer to get that Faith up. Ancestor Worship is getting you +6 Faith right now, +3 Culture, +4 Science, but has taken longer to reach that point than Open Sky. I don't think that's very competitive. For me, Ancestor Worship is for when I know I have a lot of Faith and am less worried about missing out on Founding, it shines in the late-game, and Austria needs help in the early-game; and in any event, the other two give Gold, which is really important for you. I don't think Ancestor Worship would even have been in my top five, being really honest.

    Otherwise, I think your play was largely quite good. You are really suffering from too few units, I think that's why Genghis has declared on you already but not @Tzar Sasha yet, but you are aiming to fix that, and as you say, it was always coming eventually.

    The tundra City is not ideal at first glance, but remember: you are Austria and there are not one but two Friendly Maritime City-States nearby. By the end of Renaissance, you will be drowning in Food, especially since you went Tradition. Most of your later Cities will be dedicated to Specialists in any event. I don't think it is ideal placement, I wouldn't have put it quite there, but I do think you have to settle somewhere near there, it just requires less focus allowing someone else to settle there, warring them, and puppeting.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
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  17. Tzar Sasha

    Tzar Sasha Tzar of Nowheresville

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    So risky letting someone else settle, fight them then puppet it. Just seems to be asking for trouble is all. I suppose I could have skipped it and hope that culture would have brought that amber in via the 5th ring. That is just a long time to wait. Maybe if I were to re do even just those last 10 turns, I'd opt for the Krakatoa location instead of the amber.

    What is done is done. Just let me know which save to attempt next.
     
  18. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Ok. Shall we stop discussing the sex of the angels and continue playing Crab's savegame?
     
  19. Tzar Sasha

    Tzar Sasha Tzar of Nowheresville

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    @CrabHelmet
    I'm trying to see if I can replicate your steps for the first part. I can kinda sorta get there, but I keep missing Temple of Artemis by 2 turns. Did you perchance purchase any workers and start improving in Vienna sometime around then. I didn't see any mention of building workers. But improving tiles is the only thing I can think of that would possibly cut down on the turns.
     
  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Is it possible to read logs from a save game? May be useful for knowing what was built when.
     

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