The Contrast Photojournals II: The Celts - new players welcome!

[CrazyG]

Rationalism.

You chose Artistry, so Rationalism is the natural follower. I don't feel you are wide enough to fully benefit from Industry and Imperialism. At this point, I would try to get further ahead in science and maximizing output from my specialists while watching the rest of the world fight each other.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm behind in science. Siam and I have the same number of techs at the end of this update, but that is because I researched some cheap techs. I think he is skipping military techs to beeline towards either Electricity or Biology. I would be very surprised if Japan or Babylon manage to win a war against Siam. The odds of an AI attacking and winning against Germany is zero. He has Great Wall, and crippled the Inca by forward settling them (Inca has no monopoly, Germany got copper and tea).

 

[CrazyG]

Here is another update. I went with Imperialism. Industry would have been my second choice, in this situation Rationalism is a really poor choice (what win condition would you be going for?)

Spoiler Why Imperialism? :

Let's talk win conditions. You won't ever get more world congress votes than Germany, so diplomatic is out. I seriously doubt I could build a spaceship before he wins from diplomacy so a (peaceful) science victory is out. Conquest.......well I would have to conquer the entire other continent.

The easiest victory will be culture; I have artistry, excellent culture, and I'm the Celts, so it looks good right. 6 of the 7 civs are already feeling my influence. But Germany is not and he has more than double the next best civ (Siam's). I could peacefully race him (I would take industry), but I think you probably lose that route, regardless of social policy choices. I have the second highest production, and Germany has more that double my production.

I'm taking imperialism because I seriously doubt this game can be won by playing peacefully, someone needs to attack and hurt Germany, and his only neighbor is a complete loser, so I'm going to be the one who attacks him. Luckily he settled two cities on that island to my north, this won't be too hard to start. As of this picture, I'm actually 3 policies into imperialism. I built 14 frigates because I have access to 14 iron.

Spoiler The Attack :

Stuttgart took 3 turns to capture. I'm starting to upgrade to cruisers. I'm the only civ with dynamite, so I also should get the Eiffel Tower. Germany has several groups of 4 or 5 ships scattered around the world that all moved towards this location. In the exchanges with German ships I lost 1 corvette. The Hunnic navy also arrived as was quickly slaughtered. He had a defensive pact with Germany that I don't care about at all.

Spoiler Brief Delay :

One writer is naturally born, I bought the other one last turn. This is good timing due to my golden ages. I also intentionally didn't capture a city to keep this cost down (this delayed me only 2 turns and I moved most of the fleet forward anyways). This gets to my ideology on turn 230. What would you pick?

After taking these two cities..........Germany is still by far the strongest civ. Time to attack the other continent.

PS: Look at that culture output.

 

[Owlbebach]

For Ideology ideally you want to have same ideology as Germany no matter what, but i guess you are 1st to ideology. In that case i probably go for Freedom cause it is safer. Order can be better if Germany goes Order, but if not - Freedom is better.

As for Imperialism - i really doubt it is a good choice, maybe if you completely destroy and vassalize Germany... Otherwise Broadway is very strong, you tourism on turn 230 is almost zero.

For win condition i don't know - Progress/Artistry in that case is jack of all trades, but master of none. And then you add Imperialism on top of that. You went in three directions at the same time.

My choice would be Fealty into Rationalism into Science because your setup for tourism is awful. I do not believe in this. Just to compare - my tourism on turn 231 was 448 per turn, i had 1600 culture per turn and that was ONE city (https://i.imgur.com/lb4oPQ1.png ). And i still lost. If you can win this via Tourism - it is only because AI allowed you to and there was no culture powerhouse like China on the map...

I really think that your only win condition here is Science AND you need to kill Germany for that

 

[CrazyG]

My choice would be Fealty into Rationalism into Science because your setup for tourism is awful. I do not believe in this. Just to compare - my tourism on turn 231 was 448 per turn, i had 1600 culture per turn and that was ONE city (https://i.imgur.com/lb4oPQ1.png ). And i still lost. If you can win this via Tourism - it is only because AI allowed you to and there was no culture powerhouse like China on the map...

Let's talk Fealty. Choosing it is wrong on this game. It provides many bonuses to things I am not doing, so those bonuses are either wasted or I have to do a sub optimal build order.

Food, Fealty has more but it isn't my priority.
Faith, Fealty has more but its useless until the industrial era. I'm not building missionaries or inquisitors.
Production, I think Artistry has more, maybe you can argue its a tie?

• 20% from more frequent golden agesvs 15% during WLTKD. WLTKD was really inconsistent this game. I was isolated, I couldn't trade for luxuries. Later on a ton of cities get stuck on banned luxuries which you cannot trade for. Most of my WLTKD came from great merchants, which I would have had less of
  
• 100% to armories/castles vs 100% to guilds. I built 9 guilds but only 7 armories, and the guilds cost more hammers on average. When isolated, neither the armory nor the castle are priorities. On turn 230 I still don't have castles, I don't think I would ahve built them everywhere even if they did have 1 happiness and 3 food.
  
• +2 hammers on amphitheatre and opera house, or +1 on pastures, +2 in all cites when finishing. This also favors artistry, both long term and short term.

Culture, Artistry has more by a huge margin

• Lots of golden ages, more value from my golden ages, +1 to every specialist is. There is no contest here, mosques + artistry produced far more culture than any other strategy could have. Look at the other photojournals, I'm producing like 400 more culture than they are at a comparable turn (yes, your Netherlands has more but that is all Netherlands UA)

Science, Even

• Artistry gives 5 per city as part of the scaler. Fealty gives 3 for monasteries and 2 for finishing the tree.
• Food is indirect science, but Artistry has more great scientists.

Gold, Artistry

• Fealty is actually very weak on gold. Artistry gets a nice boost for great people, and the golden ages boost my gold output substantially. I work a lot of tiles that produce 1 or 2 gold.

Go to the turn when I picked the second policy tree. Fealty would have done NOTHING. I was still saving faith for a great prophet, so not buying. monasteries yet. The second policy? DOES NOTHING. I had not unlocked armories or castles, and I wouldn't have built them anyways, even at half price and +3 food, a castle isn't a priority against the other medieval buildings because I was isolated.

Fealty is clearly designed to help war (none when isolated), religious battles (none when isolated), and WLTKD (can't trade for luxuries when isolated). This game had extreme isolation. This thread is supposed to help explain how to play when isolated? My advice would be to avoid picking social policies that do nothing.

 

[tu_79]

I guess I'd go Autocracy. You've basically won by culture, only Germany fall left. Then make her fall fast.

 

[Minh Le]

Winning Culture with Germany in the game is very hard. I think its only possible if completely take him out, or take his capital?

 

[Owlbebach]

Let's talk Fealty. Choosing it is wrong on this game. It provides many bonuses to things I am not doing, so those bonuses are either wasted or I have to do a sub optimal build order.

Okay, i agree. Progress into Artistry sure can work. Progress-Artistry-Rationalism make sense as a setup for Science victory and i sure agree that Fealty on isolated continent is a bad choise.

My Netherland had 1 city and i sure did not have 600 culture from UA

 

[CrazyG]

I'm taking Autocracy. It has a great tourism game.

I really, really disagree with people suggesting rationalism. Coal wasn't revealed when you made that choice, if you get caught with no coal how can you possibly win a peaceful game? What is my science advantage doing for me? I had about a 20 turn build time on wonders so a science lead won't guarantee I build them. With rationalism your navy is so much weaker so you can't hurt Germany very easily. He is going to win if you don't intervene. You will not get a spaceship before Germany wins. I do not have strong science from my civ or religion. Both Siam and Germany do.

Spoiler Non-War Things :

So pick autocracy, elite forces for extra experience. Siam built the Palace of Westminster, which is great because Germany didn't built it! I unlock archeology and start to research industrialization. When I choose imperialism, I did not know if I would have coal. Luckily I have a ton, but another reason I wanted imperialism is so I could attack and take cities before ironclads are used, potentially capturing some coal for myself. The Huns had a city revolt and become a city state, LOL.

Spoiler Next Target :

Almaty is a German ally, has a German embassy, and most likely has a trade route with Germany. Its the next target, he is easily whittled down while killing off the handful of German reinforcements from the north. I have a few land units to help me secure the city after I take it. Germany takes Autocracy as well, only 5 turns behind me (even after my big Great Writer play) and builds Empire State Building. I lose another corvette in this exchange, but its not a big deal.

Spoiler Demographics :

Germany is still so powerful, even after losing two cities. I'm currently barely ahead in culture. I bride the Inca to declare war on Germany. They aren't strong but Germany has got to be feeling war wariness at this point. Also he now has dynamite so the Great Wall is obsolete.

Spoiler Corporation :

I advance to the next era. Using a Great engineer, gold to invest, and my production bonus for Way of Transcendence, I can built the headquaters in two turns. Siam builds a turn before I do, I trade all those hammers for 170 culture. Fantastic. I have no other monopoly, so I can't build a corporation. At least I didn't spend the Great Engineer.

Spoiler Forgot Pictures :

Sorry I didn't take pictures. I take two more German cities. I pillage every tile I possibly can. My cruisers kill a ton of units. Most of them have logistics. The 3 that don't went the city attack route, but they do less damage to cities that the logistics one do. Germany becomes my vassal but keeps his capital, which is landlocked.

While at war with Germany, I also sailed a small group towards a city state to liberate a Japanese city and reduce my war score a little bit. Germany's vassal yields are more than 1/10th of my culture and science. I max out hisgold tax too. Finally I'm outproducing him, so I can propose world's fair, right?

Spoiler Demographics After the War :

Seriously? Germany is such a powerful civ.

 

[Owlbebach]

Looks like you have everything for Diplo win. Germany is voting for you and you can build army and easily abuse tribute with you powerful navy

 

[CrazyG]

Looks like you have everything for Diplo win.

Everything except the votes and the science. Tourism is going to be much faster.

 

[CrazyG]

From here, the games goes pretty quickly.

Spoiler World Congress :

I waited on this proposal until after Germany was weakened. Despite him still having more total hammers than I do, I win. Siam is now the host of the world congress, and with Germany hurt (but still quite strong) he has a powerful lead in. Germany passes a dye ban, which annoys me.

I propose, pass and finish building both Treasure Fleet and World's Fair. Germany technically still has more production than I do (Hanse are a crazy building), but I still somehow get first place in both.

Spoiler Technology :

My science isn't very good currently. I build Cristo Redentor though, Siam had the tech but not the culture. This wonder really helps wide tourism strategies. Inca rather ammusingly declare to me that they will win by culture. Babylon took Freedom, everyone else is taking autocracy. Japan and Babylon have become decently powerful civs, both took Rationalism and have caught up to the big players in science.

Spoiler Nothing Personal :

I have no issues with Japan, but I get tourism for conquering cities, and all his cities are coastal. It took me 24 turns to capture all of his cities, no units lost. I'm earning about 1,700 tourism per city capture, plus a historic event for winning a war.

Spoiler Victory :

I had basically won once I defeated Germany, and I win formally on turn 290. Germany's culture falls quickly thanks to Cult of Personality, I could force him to war the same person I do by vassalizing him. Siam and Germany both became influenced on the same turn. That same turn, I reached my second tier 3 tenet for the win.

Spoiler Ideology Tenets :

Note: these DO NOT display in the order you took them. Autocracy has an excellent tourism game.
I almost always take Elite Forces first, its just a great tenet if you are fighting. Promotions win wars.
I think players really overlook futurism, its extremely good.
Iron Fist~ its really good if you have a vassal. By making it impossible for Germany to be liberated, its really sealed the game. It might be an unfair tenet. I took it before the tier 2 tenets.
New World Order was filler. I forget what it even does.

Commerce Raider is whatever. I took it for extra production for a better chance at building wonders.
Third Alternative wasn't really important.
Martial Spirit, maybe I took the cities a little bit faster because of it? All of my tier 2s were filler.

Tier 3, Cult of Personality was worth +100% tourism to Germany. Extremely powerful, far more potential than Freedom or Order's tourism.
Air Supremacy is a good tenet, I just took it to finish the game!

 

[Owlbebach]

How much accumulated culture did Germany have? Tourism victory with 570 tourism per turn is quite unusual

Everything except the votes and the science

In that case you need to get your science from vassals - just get another 2 or 3, with you army it is easy. And vassals always vote for you in Global Hegemony.

 

[CrazyG]

How much accumulated culture did Germany have? Tourism victory with 570 tourism per turn is quite unusual

I've updated my version so I can't check his exact number. He has slightly less than than I do, and I'm at 27 policies with 11 annexed cities.
Bonus yields are the biggest source of tourism! Never worry about a low per turn tourism, you only win by bonus yields and also keeping positive modifiers. I put a diplomat in immediately after we made peace, had all my trade routes going that way.

I don't see why you are suggesting a diplomatic victory here. I won before the UN could even be proposed.

Edit: Also the tooltip for shared war is appearing twice. I cannot tell if the actual value is counting twice, but either way that should be looked at.

 

[Owlbebach]

Bonus yields are the biggest source of tourism! Never worry about a low per turn tourism, you only win by bonus yields and also keeping positive modifiers.

Yes but they scale from you tourism per turn. The more tourism per turn you have - the more you get from trade routes archaeologists etc. And realistically all AIs in this game are always very low on culture. I don't think you can win like that with China that usually have like 400k culture

 

[CrazyG]

Yes but they scale from you tourism per turn. The more tourism per turn you have - the more you get from trade routes archaeologists etc. And realistically all AIs in this game are always very low on culture. I don't think you can win like that with China that usually have like 400k culture

You realize this game was on immortal, right?

I'm aware you lost that one city challenge, but it was a much different patch. Also the reason you lost there is because you..........well you only had one city so you couldn't do things like military attacks to weaken her. Peaceful culture victory is pretty hard to do when a civ is snowballing, especially if that civ has culture from their unique ability or their religion. Which is why I took imperialism and dealt with the problem. Don't take the same policies every game!

I'm really confident that this was the right way to play the game. The intention of this group thread was to show how to play when isolated, I'll try to collect some thoughts and write some advice later.

 

[YukiN]

I think the proof is in the pudding. This was a quick win when the AI looked ahead. That's all there is to be said on that. Nice play.

 

[Owlbebach]

You realize this game was on immortal, right?

oh, i forgot that. Well that changes everything.

 

[tu_79]

Then, an isolated start is winnable as long as you don't depend too much on science?

 

[CrazyG]

Then, an isolated start is winnable as long as you don't depend too much on science?

Here are my thoughts for isolation's early game (Ancient, Classical, and Medieval)~

Spoiler Religion :

1) Found a Religion. It will be a long time before another civ spreads to you.
2) Consider Cathedral of St. Basil. Reforming your religion will be difficult.
3) After you have a religion, especially a reformed religion, don't invest in faith. You probably won't have much to spend it on. Holy Sites aren't worth the cost unless you go tourism, and even then they aren't a high priority.
4) You potentially can try to convert another civ or continent, but realize that the cost is enormous, so I would only consider it if you need it to reform.

Spoiler Military :

1) Early build order should be similar to your build order in any other game.
2) After your initial build (probably one or two units), be greedy and go without military. Don't upgrade or build new land units, all you need to do is fight barbarians! If you have handled the barbarians, consider gifting the units to city states.
3) Your biggest advantage over a non-isolated civ is production and gold. You can spend 100% of your gold and hammers on economy, so do it!
4) Similar to above, don't prioritize armories, walls or castles. You should still build barracks as part of the arena system.
4) Similar to above, you don't need military technologies. Sailing is a military technology!

Spoiler Science :

1. Your science will be weak. You can address that using religion, civ traits, but you have to accept it to an extent
2. Trade is a weak tech when you can't get science from a foreign caravan.
3. Go for techs that unlock culture or production first. Don't go straight for lighthouses, you let yourself fall behind by doing so.
4. Don't overvalue fishing. Yes you need to embark, but if its not an important tech for your economy, it can wait.
5. Economic power is king! You probably want to unlock pottery and a military unit, but after that go for what ever gives you the most yields. Its most likely masonry because of arenas and watermills.
6. Go for compass to get caravels, and use them and an explorer to start scouting.
7. Be smart when advancing eras. Steel, chivarly, and gunpowder are all not that big of a priority here. Get universities or circuses instead.

Spoiler Wonders :

1. Don't build military wonders early game! Are you noticing a pattern here? Don't spend science getting military wonders. Don't spend hammers getting military wonders. The Great Lighthouse is a military wonder. The reason my save is in a stronger position that Crabhelmet's is because I was connecting dye instead of building a military wonder. Between unlocking fishing, trade, and sailing, this path just has a ton of science spent without getting much (trapping isn't important here either).
2. If it lets you reform, Cathedral of St. Basil is probably the most important wonder of the first 3 eras.
3. University of Sankore is important to tradition. Forbidden City is not that important to progress.
4. The wonders with the strongest economic impact are Petra, Parthenon, Oracle, Notre Dame, and potentially Machu Pichu.

Spoiler Early Social Policies :

1. Authority is really hard to make work, you just don't have enough opportunities to fight.
2. You probably don't want Fealty, for similar reasons to not wanting authority.
3. Don't pick your policy without thinking. Fealty is normally a good choice for a Celtic progress game, but it was awful here.