The Deity Challenge Line-up #30 - Iroquois

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Acken, May 21, 2015.

  1. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    Despite my pessimism, I am trying again -- not ashamed to be using map knowledge since I doubt that can really help me!

    Where would you rather have had it? On the mountain? (That was not an option for me, as what’s-his-name was too close.)

    Spoiler :
    I planted my first expo at the end of the bay, same as shown in a few screen shots. My second expo was on that one desert tile. (I think I saw people picking that spot too, hard to tell for sure.)
    I didn’t try founding but I still like the early the early shrine for extra food from camps. Did you have more than one expo on that part of the map? My city there was about the same as what st412 posted in his screenshot, was late, and would not help with founding in any case. If you were putting one-and-only-one city in that part of the map, where would you pick?

    Spoiler :
    As before I kept Assyria off my back by agreeing with him early to DoW Russia. Only thing I have done differently so far is bribe him to attack the Inca a couple times. He did not make much progress though. I will try and war through Assyria to Inca, and if that works the game should be in the bag. But I am poor at warmongering, so a stalemate with Assyria is the most likely outcome. Any ideas for throwing a wrench in the Inca CV?
     
  2. sun8119

    sun8119 Warlord

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    yes, 1 turn SW
     
  3. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Don't take my advice beetle, my peaceful play on suboptimal dirt leaves much to be desired, and I won't be finishing this map. I went 3 city NC and Piety, with the 3rd city going to that island, with a rush-bought library, but I fell so far behind. Unless I have a clear domination plan early on or decent dirt for 4-5 city tradition, I feel I am very bad at making choices.
     
  4. Shark Diver

    Shark Diver King

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    T309 Science Victory

    Spoiler :

    Well this was most certainly an unorthodox game, and my map ended up looking a lot different than those of some of the other finishers. On to the storyline......

    I really have never played as the Iroquois, so I didn't really have a game plan going in. I know that I've found them to be very irritating to play against due to their city spamming tendencies, and they are not fun to invade. Given the early great defensive terrain, I made the decision to do a lib/trad mix and perhaps go for a diplo victory, hoping to take advantage of the saved gold from roads.

    The early barbs weren't a whole lot of fun, really delaying worker steals. I was lucky enough to step on an Archery ruin right off the get go, so build order went Scout > Archer. Scout turned into an archer down South, met Assyria, India (worker steal) and Russia (BFF).

    Given the 4 surrounding fisheries, I researched Sailing after Pottery/Writing, and the Scout-Archer stepped on an Optics ruin. Since I was waiting for the Liberty settler-building bonus before spamming settlers, I wasted a bunch of turns building Great Lighthouse, sent the first settler to the Western land-mass, and used that religious NW to get 6th Pantheon and 5th religion. I had thought to settle that entire land-mass, but Russia was a relentless city-spammer and I only got 2 cities there before all of the land was gone.

    Religion was a big helper this game. I took Good of the Sea, Tithe, Pagodas (they were still around, surprisingly, but I only got 3 built before they got too expensive), Religious Community (figured that would combine well with the UB), and RT. 500 faith GP spread the Glorious religion of Cave Diving to cities 4-6 just in time for WF, and I even kept all 6 cities faithful until very late in the game.

    Although it was a very slow start, I was pretty much set up to be a production monster, winning WF with around 1150 points. That culture boost was much needed, as I really had no cultural boosts for most of the game until much later when I focused on cultural CS.

    4 city NC was built t101, and delaying a few extra settlers while getting that done allowed Cathy enough time to spam settlers and pin me into my 6 city corner. Despite some clamoring about her disapproval of my manners, she never once DoW'd me.

    Assyria forward settled me early, and I had to bribe him to war against Russia (cheaply) a few times.

    Incans were very strong and traded a bit more stingily than usual, and even settled a city on the Northern coast a bit too close for comfort. India was ultra friendly, but it was inevitable that their tiny empire would be swallowed up by Assyria at some time, so I mostly avoided DoF's with him. The rest of the caste acted pretty typically.

    I was 4th to Ideologies (Oxforded into Radio), and took Freedom as it was the only one unselected (plus I luv FL's). I was immediately thrown into unhappiness, and given my lack of culture, it was going to be a long time before I got happy again. In a very strange twist, the next 3 civs followed me into Freedom, which helped a bit, but cultural beasts Russia and Inca had both gone Autocracy, so the unhappiness still hurt. Because there were 3 others in Freedom, I bulbed 2 GS to get to SoL and burned my first faith GE to build it. Faith was very low for me, so I only got one more GE, which I'd end up using on Hubble.

    Screen Shot 2015-05-26 at 7.28.31 AM.jpg

    Assyria wasn't pleased about my Ideological choice and DoW'd me, along with the puny Aztecs (whose invading fleet lasted about 3 turns). I already had FL's (sacrificing happiness), so he really couldn't even get a melee hit on Osininka, but he was really early to flight and kept hitting me with GWB's while I was beelining to get Offshore Platforms so I could work my only 2 oil deposits. Thankfully, Ashur was also landlocked, so I didn't have to fear a naval assault, and he would have had a tough time getting through my frigates anyways (I had plenty of iron). I sent my first spy to Assyria early, and he stole 3 naval technologies from landlocked Ashur, so I do thank him for that. Had Cathy wanted to attack, I would have been pummeled. As it was, all Ashur was able to do was keep Osininka at zero HP for about 30 turns while my units built up XP.

    Screen Shot 2015-05-26 at 8.50.47 AM.jpg

    Sadly, during this period, the world remained very violent and my Freedom buddies got their butts kicked. India became a memory quickly. The Incans wiped Polynesia off the map very effectively.....or so I thought. Somehow, Kamehameha settled a couple of icebergs up North (it took me awhile to figure out where he was hiding), and kept me from losing a 2nd RA due to extinction. As you can see, he wasn't a very useful trading partner anymore, but he was great in the World Council.

    Screen Shot 2015-05-26 at 2.29.49 PM.jpg

    At this point, Diplo was not going to happen, CV was long ago ruled out, and Russia was such a beast that I couldn't even consider going Domination. SV would have to be the default fallback option. Only problem was, I never got the tech lead. In fact, Cathy ended up at 99% tech, and had 2 parts built on the NW landmass that she was never smart enough to actually send to her capital. I had a Battleship stationed to intercept those SS parts if she had embarked them, but they just sat there while I slowly waited to get the final social policy that allowed me to buy the final part. I should have lost this game, but AI incompetence prevailed. Cathy could have taken me out, or at least knocked me back to the mainland, at any time, and she could have launched if she had a clue (stupid commies). Pocha probably wasn't far off either. Cathy ended up swallowing Assyria whole in about 5 turns pretty late. The map ended up very yellow.

    I'll take the ugly win, and very much enjoyed Iroquois production bonus (I think my capital was at about 220 Hammers when building SS parts), but this unorthodox approach wasn't anywhere close to optimal.

    Wonders built were G-Lighthouse, Oracle, SoL, Hubble, Cristo, Neusch. That's a pretty low count for a Wonder-monger like myself who had good production, but I really didn't have time for more.

    Sorry for the long write-up......it feels short compared to the length of the game.

    Screen Shot 2015-05-26 at 2.55.51 PM.jpg
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    Screen Shot 2015-05-26 at 3.20.11 PM.jpg

     
  5. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    @Shark Diver
    Spoiler :

    There is a strong Cathy. It is possible for a human player to rebase SS parts with airlift (requires airports), but I don't know if the AI can use that.

    Nice religion. God of the Sea does sound nice on this map :)
     
  6. Shark Diver

    Shark Diver King

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    @Olodune
    Spoiler :

    I hadn't even considered the airlift possibility. I guess I was even luckier than I had thought.

    Regarding the religion: I'd have been better off getting +1 Food from camps, as the capital would have grown much faster and I'd have been able to work more lumber mills earlier. That said, fishing boats that are yielding 3 hammers is pretty cool.


     
  7. beetle

    beetle Deity GOTM Staff

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    As someone new to the DCL, I very much appreciate it! Thank you!

    Okay, that describes half my SVs! Why doesn't the AI airlift them when stuck on the pathing?

    I am replaying the map, the cultural run-away last game now being held in check by two other doing equally well with tourism. I have no idea why! But [snip] built Hubble on turn 250, the fastest I have ever lost it. My only hope is that [snip] has the same problem in my game as yours.

    I am about at turn 309 now, WC just voted Freedom as world Ideology and [snip] just flipped from Order, which I was also in. In two turns I unlock the tier 3 GE/GS from, so I will flip then as well. I have not even started Apollo, and have lots of the tech tree to burn through. That will be three GS on deck though.

    I am going try for DiploV now, but the game probably won't last that long. If so I will see if the third time can be the charm -- reloading back to when I picked a couple policies in Aesthetics and put those into Patronage instead, and go Freedom even if that means no free tenets.
    Spoiler :
    I just liberated Assur from Incan, and I am pretty sure I can take Warsaw from Aztec. If Cathy does not launch, I think I will have Freedom CS Trade Routes and Globalization at about the same time.
     
  8. nmp0098

    nmp0098 Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    This was a modern era domination game, which is really all I'm any good at, starting from a 3 city Tradition foundation. 4 or 5 cities would have been better, but I didn't find that island until late and I'd rather not found any marginal cities when I plan to conquer a bunch later. I thought about playing a culture game with all the production on the map, and I almost built the Sistine Chapel by reflex. But I wanted a change of pace and I didn't have a garden city so I stayed the course.

    I was wondering about that early brute, and it was a problem for my scouts getting out and about. I only managed to steal 2 workers from India, and that was pretty late. I prioritized archers, and cleared the way for two delayed expos. For some reason I kept building work boats in the cap, and delayed my NC by a good 6+ turns by forgetting to build a library in the capital and finish a chop in Grand River. So NC on T93, but I still got Education on T107 due to good early growth in my capital. I built a light house right after my settlers. I sat on my three early archers for a while and maintained good relations with everyone without really trying too hard. What I think really slowed me down was an early shrine. I did get a lot of turns from God of the Sea, but the shrine didn't synergize with my strategy anywhere else. I inherited Religious Community from Russia, and I was pretty happy with it.

    The middle of the game was all about growth, so I could plateau and build a mess of units at some point. With only 3 cities and probably limited resources, I went into Patronage straight to the resource bonus, with a pause to put 2 into Rationalism. I put 3 into Commerce before being the first to an Ideology and picking Autocracy. The basic idea was to make the late game warring easier by owning most of the city-states, and using said city-states to keep the diesel flowing. I chose Autocracy partly due to the lumber mill flavor of my cities, but mostly because of a personal favorite policy - Total War.

    I hit Plastics on T203 with 6 artillery built or in production, with Military Academies all around, and enough cash to rush 3 research labs. I rushed and built 8 infantry, and then denounced and DOW'd Assyria. He was the military leader, but he was at war with Russia and I was able to take down his capital fairly quickly. Plus, infantry smash cannons and rifles, which was all he had. I added two more cities and liberated Gandhi before moving on to The Inca.

    By the time I rounded on Pacachuti, I had triggered a round of denouncements against him for picking on Polynesia and built two bomber stacks. I also upgraded to rocket artillery before too long into the fight. I lost a lot of infantry in the mountain passes trying to breach his 180 defense cities, but once I broke through with logistics RA I had paratroopers riding the rail lines South to support the action. It took a while to finally take Honolulu from him, but he was far and away the biggest threat to win early so I was able to take my time on the last few capitals.

    While I was waiting on the Commerce finisher, I grouped my land forces near The Aztec lands and grouped my navy near Russia. I had a DOF going with Monte and I waited it out rather than back-stab him. I went ahead and attacked Russia because Assyria had already done so, and Moscow was showing damage. I think I got there just in time, although I might have had one more turn because Ashurbanipal had the city surrounded with artillery. After taking Moscow and the two neighboring cities, I left Russia alone and sent my navy to surround Monte.

    Monte had the last two capitals, and by the time I got my Navy in position the DOF had ended. I attacked with battleships, subs, destroyers, 3 bomber stacks, RA, tanks, and paratroopers. He had GWI and the like. I liberated Poland just to keep up good relations with everyone else, and captured all of the relevant cities in 5 turns.

    My core 3 cities grew no more than 1-2 pop after T200, and they built and funded the vast majority of my military over the last 80 turns of the game. The capital focused on my navy, while the other two mostly built my air force and army. This was kind of dictated by the locations of the forges and my lone seaport. My techs leveled off once I started taking cities, but I had every tech I needed to win or I wouldn't have been able to take a lot of cities. I wasn't that far from Stealth, but I didn't need it this game. I built Big Ben and Prora, and conquered all of the other Wonders.
     

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  9. nickytootricky

    nickytootricky Warlord

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    Nice win and write up, nmp!
     
  10. Bimblecrumbs

    Bimblecrumbs Warlord

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    T207 Domination

    Firstly, sorry for the long post, I hope you all like reading! As Shark Diver so elegantly put it, any amount of words will feel short here compared to the time spent taking on this map :)


    Spoiler :
    That. took. ages. I must have spent a good 15 hours on this game, and many more pondering moves and strategy when at work; the map was really fun and challenging, so thanks Acken! I went through turns slowly and methodically, often sleeping on problems and coming back to them the next day.

    The map was a good one for the Iroquois UB, so I only chopped one of the hills so speed up my settler. I was a little disappointed by Mohawks; it seems like they should have the Woodsman promotion too (like Jaguars) for when they're not in their own territory. As for forests acting as roads, it's annoying that units can't go from one to the other without losing movement points as if it were one continuous road; because of this, I ended up building a complete road between my cities anyway. It was my first victory with the Iroquois and they were... meh.

    To begin with I went for two scouts and managed to sneak one south past the 5(?) extra brutes to get a couple more ruins. My warrior lured most of the barbarians back into city bombardment range and they were dispatched sharpish. After the scouts came a shrine for Goddess of the Hunt because +4 food in the cap really helped early on. I stole a worker for Jerevan and hard built 2 others in the cap. The decision to open Tradition into full Honour saved me lots of money due to not having to buy pricey forested hills. There's a shot of the cities early on [Picture 1].

    I got a 2 city NC up by turn 78. I found the island to the west a bit late and decided not to settle there; I was super low on happiness (the spot has no lux) until Cusco fell and all the religions were gone anyway. It was an unfortunate circumstance that I was stuck with Russia's awful religion in my 2 main cities for the entire game. Until Unis and Observatories I was pretty behind in science, typically 10% until the mid 40's. However by 45% I was 2-3 techs behind the Incans.

    To begin the war I had 7 Xbows and 4 Mohawk warriors (turn 108 Machinery), and had finished Honour. It was overkill for Assur, which fell by turn 111; Assyria had just finished devouring Ghandi's eastern cities and I caught him with his pants down [Picture 2]

    Assur had Pyramids, Temple of Artemis and Statue of Zeus; a nice combo for early domination. Here I checked the techs and decided I wasn't ready for the Incans until Longswordsmen, so I farmed xp and gold off Assurbanipal's units and cities, eventually razing Nimrud and puppeting Nineveh because Petra is sweeeeet. The Incans DOW'd him and took M'banza-Kongo, at which point I attacked them (after denouncing, earning me Russian and Polish friendships because most AIs were at war with Inca for most of the game) and retook it. Here I needed a citadel because of Knights/Great Wall, and I still lost an almost-logistics Xbow and a Mohawk which had to be replaced [Picture 3].

    It was at about this point that Poland started to buy my city state allies, so I was forced into spending a total of ~2000g to maintain a happy empire. Luckily, with unit upgrades being so cheap and Unis already purchased, I just about had the gold to spare. After some lucky quests early on, I was able to keep the 2 nearest cultural CSs allied for the entire game, thereby finishing Commerce before Autocracy.

    Ksr-Somethingorother and Vuathingythingthing died next; I sold those to Ghandi for about 45GPT total and moved east onto Cusco. The Incans had built a handy road along the hills on the south coast. I grabbed Aotearoa, annexed it and used 2 Great Generals to get up close to Cusco. Pachacuti built the Red Fort as I started attacking, taking Cusco's defence up from 53 to 83 and rendering it impossible for Xbows. I was forced into bulbing Industrialisation and slowly taking it with promoted Gatlings, which cost me a lot of time [Picture 4].

    I reloaded once here after heavy extending too far with an unnecessary third citadel to Cusco's east. Nobody's perfect and I'm no exception!

    I finished off the other Incan cities to the east and north and took on Poland once I hit Artis (bulbed a 2nd GS and used Oxford). I actually had a DOF with Poland that was due to expire in 3 turns, but attacked anyway because everyone was about to hate me. Poland wasn't so hard, but I lost a range/logistics/march/cover1 Gatling Gun to a Winged Hussar combo and mourned his loss with a rage quit [Picture 5].

    By that time I had finished commerce (silver award World's Fair) and got Autocracy, so it was just a matter of building/buying Artis and Cav; I annexed Cusco in order to buy them in the east. I also built/bought 10 or so Frigates right at the end to deal with all of Russia's Galleasses and soak up damage.

    Poland owned Tenochtitlan so I went for that after Warsaw, which submitted to my rule on turn 196. Having already killed most Polish troops, the Aztec lands were easier than they might have been otherwise [Picture 6].

    A road to Polynesia from just south of Genoa made it possible to rush him right at the end. He had been fighting the Incans and most of his units were over to the west. Honolulu died for the second time on turn 207 as I took Moscow [Picture 7].

    A further road was pre-built to India's lands and Delhi was conquered in good time on turn 198. Ghandi gave me an enormously generous peace deal, which allowed for a few more Frigates to attack Russia with. Kathy had a decent army but I tied up a lot of units with ZoC at her northern and southern cities and pushed through the centre, taking Novgorod, St. Petersburg and finishing up with Moscow [Picture 8].

    Techs: Philosophy ---> Machinery ---> Education ---> Astronomy ---> Steel ---> Industrialisation ---> Dynamite ---> Rifling ---> Navigation ---> Scientific Theory.

    Social Policies: Tradition opener, full Honour, full Commerce, Autocracy 4.


    Formatting note. Should I attach thumbnails and links, just thumbnails, link images directly, something else...? I see a lot of different ways of posting and want to know what people prefer.
     

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  11. peddroelm

    peddroelm King

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    @Bimblecrumbs very impressive .
     
  12. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    I applaud you
     
  13. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    @Bimblecrumbs - Did you use units to stop Ash from expanding NW, or were you just lucky? :)

    Also, do you go Machinery before Education always, or have you experimented with the other way round? I'm interested in finding out if it's strictly better one way or another, or situational. :)
     
  14. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    Hi all. I'm fairly new to this game. I have played a lot of Civ4 some 10 years ago but was rather disappointed by this one as it first came out. I still think it's too easy, why not add one level to provide a tougher challenge. But apart from that it's a very good game, rather different from Civ4 which is refreshing.

    On to the game T100:

    Spoiler :

    Opened tradition as i don't know any better. My scout escaped on the south side while my warrior lured the brutes to the capital. I got archery from a ruin so my second build
    was an archer instead of a scout. Brutes were defeated quickly after.Scout stole a worker from India and one from Yerevan, second steal hurt,
    the first one did not. Settled the mainland but with not much happy and no good spots i didn't risk settling forward to Assyria.
    Beelined optics and found out about the western continent about T70. Assyria begins a war against Ghandi, not unexpected that.

    After a rather late 3 city NC at T88 i concentrate on settling the new western continent to which i have send a delegation
    consisting of 2 settlers,2 workers 4 archers and a composite accompanied by a trireme.I considered going for metal casting immediately, delaying education,
    as longhouses are very strong on this map but with science as slow as it is i rejected this idea.

    Begin of the game was tough going but with 4 cities + 1 settler on the western continent and 3 food routes in place the whole thing looks a bit better.
    Allied to Florence, friends with Yerevan and Kyzyl means good culture output. On the western continent Vilnius is very important,
    with an easy barb quest it shouldn't be difficult to ally Vilnius so happy won't be a problem for some time. I also didn't build even one
    circus/colosseum yet. Science is still slow.

    I have no win plan in mind yet. I'll continue settling the western continent. Tradition is finished, with very good city states around
    i'll dip into patronage before going rationalism. More gold will be useful as well to get the most out of these city states. Chopped only one forest
    and don't plan on chopping more for the time being, play it the Iroquois way, let's see how good those longhouses are.













     
  15. Olodune

    Olodune Emperor GOTM Staff

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    Well now. There is a familiar name. :goodjob: And I thought I was slow to accept that Civ 5 was finally interesting enough to start playing. It does make me wonder how different the old Civ 4 crowd's reaction to Civ 5 would be if it was released in its current form. Nice to see you.

    Solid opening too - I'm looking forward to the rest of your game.

    Spoiler :

    Engineering before Civil Service as Tradition, hmm? That is not a common opening, but might be correct here. I'm also happy to see someone else who thinks building 6+ cities as Tradition is solid play.
     
  16. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    Oh goody, another vet returned, this will stir up the tables and who knows, I might even learn something
     
  17. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    Nice to see you too :goodjob:

    Spoiler :

    You deducted engineering from my 3th trade route i guess. Should have made a screenshot of tech. Indeed you would normally go civil service first also for the bonus from new era. But the 3th route (+lumbermill) is worth a lot here where CS doesn't do much in it self on this map other than leading to edu that is. And construction/engineering is not that expensive.

    When i began playing the game i tried liberty but i had much better results with tradition so far. Tradition tends to have more happy i think from monarchy in the long run so it should be at least as good at supporting large empires. Expanding the empire just takes a bit longer.
     
  18. Bimblecrumbs

    Bimblecrumbs Warlord

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    @peddroelm and stormtrooper, thanks. Peddroelm, know that your videos contributed towards the victory!

    @consentient

    1. For Assyria's lack of expansions I was just lucky, and I fully expected to have to take and raze a city NW of Assur. It never came because Assyria warred M'banza-Kongo early on and then India, obviously failing to get through to Delhi (just checked my turn 56 save, ran my scout over there, and Gandhi already had lots of elephants). So he was apparently distracted enough not to settle more cities.


    2. For your second question, let's assume that I'm opening honour (therefore 2-3 cities max) and that there's an AI close enough to attack.

    When Xbow rushing, I'd say that it's always better to go Machinery if you think you can pull it off.
    My strategy relies on Gatling Guns asap with Oxford, a GS bulb or stealing Economics/Printing Press/other necessary techs. Going Education before Machinery on Deity means that Xbows arrive and, before they can be upgraded, are up against:

    - Comparatively earlier lancers/cav. Lancers may be crap for their place in the tech tree, but they still destroy xbows with ease when the AI is willing to suicide them.
    - Cities that will start to 1 shot them or kill them combined with a range unit inside.
    - High defence cities that they can't handle.
    Spoiler :
    In this challenge, because of the Red Fort in Cusco, I needed Gatlings with logistics (+range as a bonus) by that point to do enough damage. That meant starting to xp earlier, and therefore Machinery first.


    I will go for Machinery first if:
    - I can get an Observatory in the cap.
    - I have a very strong salt/Petra etc. cap.
    - I have 3 solid cities overall.
    - I just have 2 cities and the 2nd is as strong as the cap, with a mountain.

    In each of these cases the science offset isn't as severe as it could otherwise be, and I feel more comfortable going for Machinery before Education.

    Perhaps an exception would be a great plains map or something similar with easy terrain; then I'd feel more comfortable being more behind in tech. I first tried this strategy out on the most ridiculous start I've ever rolled (save is somewhere); small, great plains, deity, 8 aggressive AIs, Poland OCC, 6 Salt, 6 Cattle, 8 other resources in cap, and went for progressively harder maps after that.

    Without the aforementioned features it's probably situational, and often depends upon the distance to the AI and how easy it is to build a road to them. Without them I would probably tech Education, avoid Industrialisation, and do an Arti/cav rush.

    Spoiler :
    Had I tried this 2 City honour opener without Observatories, I would never have got to Industrialisation in time to take Cusco when I reached it. Who knows how many extra turns I'd have sat there twiddling my thumbs?


    I haven't tried going Education enough because the maps so far have been good enough starts. I'm relatively new to the DLC, might visit some past games with worse starts when I have the time. Any suggestions? :)
     
  19. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    You know, come to think of it, I went Construction before Civil Service myself, because no rivers, faster lumber mills and an extra trade route
     
  20. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    Yeah i thought it was so obvious to do that here that i didn't mention it. Have to admit i had forgotten about the Era bonus at that time :) or i might have reconsidered. Even going Metal Casting before Civil Service was an option, problem is that you probably have nothing to build with all the production if you go that way.
     

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