The Deity Challenge Line-up #34 - Egypt

[Redaxe]

I for one would appreciate having the “etc” bit expanded upon. I have never been able to figure out the peaceful CV path. I understand the general outline, but I can never seem to get those mid-game cultural wonders, and timing/winning International Games never seems to be something I can manipulate. The game elements I can easily control never seem to amount to nearly enough.

Hmmm I'll do my best. Well following Acken's recommendation the Peaceful Cultural Victory requires your civ to do a lot of heavy lifting in the mid game. After all that is when most of the cultural wonders and archaeological digsites become available.
As far as wonders go my priorities sorta go like this

Sistine Chapel (essential) - basically an extra museum and the +25% culture does 2 things. Firstly it prevents another civ getting it which stops them getting an enormous cultural boost (which slows your tourism and is a nightmare to deal with for Civs that are competing on Culture Victories or have a tonne of cities). Secondly it helps with social policies - Cultural Victory is the hardest because you'll need Rationalism + Aesthetics.
Globe Theatre (I don't bother with this one)
Uffizi (only if I miss Sistine Chapel)
Louvre (very desirable despite the point in Exploration)
Eiffel Tower (essential)
Broadway (there's 2 ways to go about this - either you save all your Great Musicians to do a big concert bomb at the end or you build 2 & theme with this wonder then hold off any more musicians until the end. Either way I don't mind this Wonder the theming bonus is quite strong.

Getting Archaeology early is also important as you can plant scouts and other units on digsites (even in other civs territory) until you are ready to dig them. You can dig a maximum of 1 site without incurring any diplomatic wrath from the AI. You can also turn a digsite into a landmark in their territory for a permanent diplomatic boost. This can be quite helpful if there is a civ that has a number of reasons to dislike you or attack you - eg opposing ideology. Maintaining peace for a peaceful culture victory is important if you want to keep a diplomat in their capital, trade route going and open borders...

If you do well here you have successfully laid the foundations to win a culture victory - you'll have a few culture wonders with theming bonuses, some great works to fill your museums and some landmarks around your cities.
From there you want to bulb/research your way to the techs that amplify your tourism. Refrigeration for Hotels and then to Internet. Radar is also a tech to consider as the Airport helps with tourism.


So how to get these Wonders? This map presents some major difficulties but also some opportunities. Firstly I'd move your settler a couple tiles North so you are within 10 tiles of Constantinople. This almost guarantees that you will get an early trade route from Byzantium and you can send one to them. This should generate you 6 beakers per turn in the early game which is significant.
Don't try to declare war on Byzantium to steal workers, get one from Hanoi instead.

Build order should be scout, scout, shrine, monument (if no culture ruin), caravan (to Constantinople), archer, watermill/granary.....
Make sure 1 scout goes North before Constantinople claims all the land blocking you from getting though - you need to meet as many civs as possible to get research bonuses.
Your strategy here will avoid building early settlers. Basically because a culture victory is so dependent on mid game strength (based on a strong capital) building settlers early is just too much of a drag on your capital. Sell your luxuries and resources to get to 500 gold to buy your first settler - if you're lucky you'll get an early offer of friendship from Theodora. After you get Petra & National College build more settlers.

My tech order would be to beeline Currency to get Petra asap. It is such a strong wonder that the earlier you get it your civ will be much stronger. If barbs are a real problem then building a war chariot will help a lot. You can decide if you want to get Hanging Gardens in the meantime. It's risky but you might be able to do it <check what civs are playing Tradition and try and get an embassy in their capitals. If their building it you can declare war on them and that may change their build priority.

After Petra get your National College out, new cities planted, run food caravans to the capital and aim for Civil Service ASAP - your capital will grow like crazy at this point. You've got nearby Cultural and Maritime CityStates so do all you can to ally them as the culture and food bonuses are also very important.
Get to universities asap and then immediately aim for Acoustics. After Sistine Chapel you can either tech to Architecture or go back and aim for Metal Casting and Printing Press/Leaning Tower as you choose.

But basically at this point you want your cities to be working universities to build Great Scientists. You can also build Porcelain Tower for another Scientist. These you'll bulb to help get through the mid game techs towards Radio. You want your capital to working the guilds, building Wonders etc - the rest of your cities are just supporting your capital in fulfilling that role.

Religion
For Pantheon Desert Folklore is a no-brainer. The faith is mainly so you can buy a lot of Great Engineers in the Industrial Period to rush Wonders and Artists/Writers.
The only other belief I'd say is essential is Religious Communities - you really want that +15% production. Your first settler will head to Sinai get more faith from that mountain.

Policies
For policies I still maintain that Honor, then Tradition or Tradition opener then Honor opener then Tradition is the way to go. You'll leave barb camps alone simply to farm barbs for culture unless you get Citystate rewards from camps or they are in the way of a new citysite. The Honor opener makes your military a bit stronger so you don't require as many units - this leaves you more time to build other things. Aside from your initial scouting don't try and take on all the barbs on your own landmass just keep your units around your capital farming culture from barbs until you have a war chariot and a settler ready to expand.

From Tradition put a point in Aesthetics until you get to Rationalism. For Rationalism I'd just put a point in the opener and Secularism and then go back to Aesthetics. The rest of the Rationalism policies aren't that important right now and you can use Research Agreements to give an intermediate tech boost. You may need to put a policy in Exploration to unlock the Louvre.

Freedom is your best Ideology for this strategy and I would time Oxford University to unlock Radio. Obviously you want the Tower of Liberty and the T3 policy that generates tourism from Broadcast Towers.

 

[consentient]

Read the Small Piety guide, beetle. Small and religious is not as doomed as you think for a DiploV.

I have a question for those who suffered with the barbs: did you research Archery first? And go Monument > Archer in all cities? If not, why not?

Lastly, the CV guide above is pretty sound, but I think the Louvre slows down the game too much. It gives more tourism, but at the cost of finishing Aesthetics, Freedom or Rationalism.

If you can see the capitals and don't see the skeleton for Leaning Tower, it's well worth building that and using the free GE for Globe Theater.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[cazaderonus]

The small guide is good but ET isnt that essential. I'd say it's an obvious wonder you just cannot miss if you play properly (and for any VC), so might as well take it. But an archeologist spam + internet + museum and SS is all you really need.

LTOP is amazing, but damn it is a gamble.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I have considered (and attempted actually) opening Honor and start Warrior -> Worker -> Settler because the northern AI can be suddenly good at protecting its workers, I still end up with my 3rd expo out later than T60ish which means its Library is done at around 75ish and my NC won't even start sooner. Scouts I found to be more than useless because barbs will actively chase them. And in one attempt in which I had T128 Education, there was absolutely no hope in getting any of the culture wonders

 

[cazaderonus]

I have considered (and attempted actually) opening Honor and start Warrior -> Worker -> Settler because the northern AI can be suddenly good at protecting its workers, I still end up with my 3rd expo out later than T60ish which means its Library is done at around 75ish and my NC won't even start sooner. Scouts I found to be more than useless because barbs will actively chase them. And in one attempt in which I had T128 Education, there was absolutely no hope in getting any of the culture wonders

yeah, opening honor doesnt seem right even here. I think the best course of action is to crap out 3/4 settlers and settle them quickly even if that creates some bad overlapping. I'd agree that opening with a warrior is nice as 2 warriors should be able to take a settler anywhere despite raging barbs.

 

[beetle]

Hmmm I'll do my best. Well following Acken's recommendation the Peaceful Cultural Victory requires your civ to do a lot of heavy lifting in the mid game. After all that is when most of the cultural wonders and archaeological digsites become available.

Thanks for all that. But I have already missed Sistine and Globe, so I may have to retry, following your script from the beginning.

But an archeologist spam + internet + museum and SS is all you really need.

I missed sacred sites, despite my best efforts. Too much RNG. People also assert that GW+Internet+museums+hotels+airports is all you really need, but that has never gotten me close. I had all that pretty early with my T370 CV Tradition/Autocracy game, but Siam needed to die. Maybe if I had gone Freedom instead? (That would have meant one early less tenet, no Prora, and I would have missed SoL -- and I prolly still would need Siam taken out.)

 

[consentient]

The earlier you hit the techs, the less tourism you need. CV is a science game where you plant GWAM and beeline Acoustics before Astronomy, Archaeology before Plastics, and that's it, really.

 

[Redaxe]

The earlier you hit the techs, the less tourism you need. CV is a science game where you plant GWAM and beeline Acoustics before Astronomy, Archaeology before Plastics, and that's it, really.

Yeah and if you do miss the key Wonders and still want to pursue a cultural victory you can plant cities near dig sites for tourism. A wide civ can compensate quite well even without most of the cultural wonders.

But on this map I wouldn't bother trying to get Sacred Sites - with Byzantium to compete with there is too much at stake doing a Piety rush.

 

[beetle]

CV is a science game where you plant GWAM and beeline Acoustics before Astronomy, Archaeology before Plastics, and that's it, really.

Thanks, that straightforward advice comes exactly at the right time for me. I did 3 city slow NC then slow build Petra in cap while expos put out a couple more settlers. Shoshone got one city in my dirt while I converted five of his settlers to workers. That city will have to wait until arty I suspect.

But on this map I wouldn't bother trying to get Sacred Sites - with Byzantium to compete with there is too much at stake doing a Piety rush.

Not just Byzantium, but Siam and Maya well. (But Maya prolly will not last.) I am Full Piety, pausing for 1 in Aesthetics and 3 in Rationalism. I picked up To the Glory of God mostly because otherwise I miss GE too much. My religion missed on all the religious building, but I am getting Mosques, Monasteries, and Jesuit Education for all my expos from Byzantium. I will put my religion in place after JE gets me Labs everywhere.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Another turn 160 resign. It was never about the raging barbarians, it was always me. I forgot how to grow properly, I forgot all timing, all benchmarks. I simply lost it and I need a time out

 

[beetle]

Another turn 160 resign.

I feel you pain. I am giving up my piety attempt, about turn 260. Just not getting any traction. Four city Tradition I think is pretty reliable -- so I am going to try 3 city HAC. Byzantium is too awkward for me to assault early, so I going to try Venice with War Chariots. By the time they get there, they should all be leveled up nicely...

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Another turn 160 resign. It was never about the raging barbarians, it was always me. I forgot how to grow properly, I forgot all timing, all benchmarks. I simply lost it and I need a time out

You don't need to grow or hit benchmarks unless an AI is running away. People are getting too angsty about Acken's finishing times that they forget about winning in other ways or simply having fun.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

I've enjoyed this map a lot. Tradition open, Honor open for barbs, finish Tradition, then just for the heck of it - Liberty! I only founded 6-7 cities, I am way behind in everything. 3 civs dead (not by me!). Very late ideology coming, late everything... Who cares! It's fun! Got HG and Petra and Sword/Plows. Looking forward to Neuschwanstein later.

 

[Acken]

Announcement:

Hello everyone

As I said in the previous thread I want to cut down the DCL to 2 times a month during the summer.
If someone is willing to post a map and make the thread on the 10th please send me a MP or say it in this thread and you'll be in charge of posting a map on the 10th of july, august and september.

Also:
I'm currently also developping my mod and spending a lot more time doing that than playing. It's going well and I think a first "early alpha" version may come next week at this speed. Consentient is currently helping me making some tests. I also want to start a DCL fashion map (maybe at immortal first) with it once its released if there are enough participants !
So if you want more games and/or a change from your usual tradition+rationalism cookie cutter gameplay you may be interested in that. The mod has the current purpose of being some sort of "what I wished Firaxis would put in a patch but never will". I want to keep most of the game intact but make choices more balanced and diverse. Pretty close to what the NQMod tries to achieve for multiplayer but for singleplayer. The challenge will also be increased (without more bonuses) and if you found the game too easy before you'll be surprised by how a few changes can make the AI scary again. It's probably why the first tests will be at immortal level.

 

[Redaxe]

Another turn 160 resign. It was never about the raging barbarians, it was always me. I forgot how to grow properly, I forgot all timing, all benchmarks. I simply lost it and I need a time out

I wouldn't give up so easily. BNW did put in a lot of catch-up mechanisms that can really help.
Trade routes for instance... Running several trade routes of food to your capital will change things very quickly
Scholars in Residence
late game bulbing
Espionage
Buying Great People with Faith
Taking Loans from the AI

 

[stormtrooper412]

You don't need to grow or hit benchmarks unless an AI is running away. People are getting too angsty about Acken's finishing times that they forget about winning in other ways or simply having fun.

It goes for normal games but not really on a CV with a start such as this. You're absolutely right though, and I learned ages ago that Acken's times are not really in the realm of mortals

 

[consentient]

I'll roll a map and post it on the 10th, in the morning GMT, so it will be late at night for our American players.

 

[stormtrooper412]

there's still some very fun Civs left

 

[beetle]

I've enjoyed this map a lot. Tradition open, Honor open for barbs, finish Tradition, then just for the heck of it - Liberty! I only founded 6-7 cities, I am way behind in everything. 3 civs dead (not by me!). Very late ideology coming, late everything... Who cares! It's fun! Got HG and Petra and Sword/Plows. Looking forward to Neuschwanstein later.

You don't need to grow or hit benchmarks unless an AI is running away. People are getting too angsty about Acken's finishing times that they forget about winning in other ways or simply having fun.

I agree, it is fun map, offering the opportunity to try different things. Thanks Acken!

I wouldn't give up so easily. BNW did put in a lot of catch-up mechanisms that can really help.

None of that could save my Liberty or Piety games. I think I went too wide with all of them. But losing Pyramids really spoils Liberty, and losing DF spoils Piety. Petra is a lock, but the cap is so weak until you get that.

Byzantium is too awkward for me to assault early, so I going to try Venice with War Chariots. By the time they get there, they should all be leveled up nicely...

This part did not work out for me. I made good use of WC with my other plays, but opening Honor and 3 archers (my other games had none) delayed the WC so much that Chivalry was already up. Twice now I have sent a force towards Venice -- only to pull them back because about halfway there I am about to unlock upgrade techs... Maybe it has be Frigates and Privateers? Cannons will run into the same timing/distance problem. But like a proper warmonger I will be using Oxford for Dynamite!

 

[stormtrooper412]

I was also a bit disappointed I didn't get Machu Pichu, it was gone really early, like turn 105 or something... Still not sure if Tradition or Liberty would work better for this map, you need early hammers and you need an early strong capital