The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game #10 - Polynesia

The Deity Challenge Lineup - Game #10 - Polynesia


Sorry for hijacking this (and for a bad map) again but Dingle hasn't been online since the 9th nor have I managed to reach him with pm or mail and with the current DB issue on CFC he is likely unable to login with his account so I'll piss off peeps for another 2 weeks. Let the normal mode resume next time regardless of the host.






Welcome to The Deity Challenge Lineup. This is a biweekly event with games being posted every other Friday. All games in this series will be set to DEITY difficulty. User civilizations, maps, and opponents will change with each challenge, but the pace will always be set at standard and the starting era will always be ancient. We will try for a variety of starts, and not just having a crazy warmonger as your next door neighbor (although there will be that too). This isn't a competition so there will be no predefined victory conditions. There is an informal spreadsheet of previous challenge finishers that you can find at the bottom of this post.


DCL Game #10

You – Polynesia
Total Civilizations - 8, handpicked and the list is within spoilers

Spoiler :

The Aztecs, Carthage, England, The Inca, Japan, Poland, The Zulus

Total City States -16
Map – Terra
Settings – Quick combat (turn it back on if you would like). Everything else is set to default.
Game Version - 1.0.3.144
Downloadable Content – G&K, BNW, Conquest of the New World Deluxe, Genghis Khan's Mongolia, Harold Bluetooth's Denmark, Isabella’s Sapin and Pachacuti's Incan Empire, Kamehameha's Polynesian Empire, Nebruchadnezzar's Babylon, Sejong The Great's Korea, Wonders of the Ancient World. The map packs are intentionally excluded.

Few notes:

For those who aren't familiar with Terra it's double Pangaea or like Earth were no one starts in the Americas ie everyone starts on the same land mass and there is another one which might be divided in two more or less equal parts. Technically this should be piece of cake for Kame but the starting position isn't exactly great so there should be some challenge element after all.
Secondly, since this a map I rolled two days ago for my own purpose the opponents were handpicked and I didn't want to pick the easiest so you might wanna check the list in advance, at least it gets you on par with me if nothing else.
At the start I wasn't thinking of DCL and played until T38 before stopping as Dingle remained unreachable and this seemed a challenge worthy map.



Schedule

Game #1 - June 20th as The Zulu, Pangaea
Game #2 - July 4th as America, Continents
Game #3 - July 18th as Persia, Continents
Game #4 - August 1st as Sweden, Pangaea
Game #5 - August 15th as The Inca, Pangaea
Game #6 – August 29th – Byzantine Empire, Continents
Game #7 – September 12th - Ethiopia, Pangaea
Game #8 – September 26th - Mongolia, Pangaea
Game #9 - October 10th - Rome, Small Continents
Game #10 - October 24th - Polynesia, Terra

DCL Finishers Spreadsheet

 

Lovely. I have zero career wins with Polynesia and I don't think I've ever played a terra map. This should keep me pre-occupied while on crutches for another week or so.

Time to go look up what a terra map entails.

Edit: OK, I have read some about Terra map strategy, but haven't played it. Sounds fun with Polynesia's UA.

 

Terra as a map type is excellent but since the game really doesn't encourage settling after Astronomy it's easily passed when hunting the fastest victory times and/or the other larger landmass can be totally ignored but for a builder like me it offers endless possibilities hence I've used it often.
And besides the built-in Terra there's similar but with more options map script Terra incognita available.

 

7 deity AIs stuck on a pangea that is half size - way to crank up border tensions .. With a good starting position this could also mean half the time to take them all out ( for Huns for example) - but that doesn't look like a good starting position at all ..

7 cats in a bag thrown next to a fire ..

 

Spacewise the situation is usually slightly better than that. The starting land mass tends to be larger than half of average Pangaea but since the CSs are spread out evenly there should be some land to expand to but border tensions are more likely so the possibility of early wars is greater. Just hiding in the corner is trickier than on Pangaea and likes.

For Polynesia it's also possible to settle capital on the 2nd continent. This gives the AI 15-40 turn head start but gives practically an own continent, few CS allies and long lasting peace.
What Terra always gives Polynesia is quite a few extra ruins and some early uncontested land to settle but it's usefulness varies as luxes are rarer than on mainland.
In short it offers a number of interesting possibilities.

 

Through t60.

Spoiler :

I read the spoiler on who the other civs were, looked at the not-so-great terrain, and figured I might just go for the "Hail Mary" strategy of taking my settler off this landmass and founding elsewhere. Given that Zulu, Japan, and Aztecs were all there, I wasn't really too excited about trying to survive the early game with 3 very early warmongers. So I marched my settler South, hit the open ocean, and set sail. I left the Maori Warrior on the mainland to steal some workers, meet other civs, and CS, possibly complete some CS requests, and generally just be an observer/nuissance. MW finds 2 huts early, 1 for culture and 1 weapons upgrade. He also steals 1 worker from a CS on t22.

Settler sails South, and finds Sri Pada on t8. Settles on top of Marble on what looks like a wonderful Moai island, IF there is enough food. Settling on t10 isn't anywhere nearly as bad as it could have been, so this was pretty lucky. Sri Pada is outside my initial ring and costs 115 to acquire the tile. I build a scout who steps on the treasure hut on my island, and he lands me 90 gold, so I can buy Sri Pada next turn.

Given the Hail Mary strategy, I'm thinking I'll be settling a lot of cities throughout the oceans and going for Cultural Victory. I'm thinking Liberty path.

Now I know I'm getting a religion. I take One With Nature. Depending on how many other wonders I can settle next to, and if anyone else goes Piety (50/50 given the civs playing), I may go after Sacred Sites. If not, I'm thinking Liberty > Aesthetics or Exploration. I'm 1st to religion and get Pagodas and Tithe. I considered other options than Tithe, but figured it was the most likely to give some benefit, as I was going to have a tough enough time spreading to my own cities, much less any others. I'm not sure what I'll do with other beliefs and will let game circumstances dictate.

BO was Scout > Monument > Maori Warrior (don't need a shrine for awhile) > Settler > Maori Warrior (to escort settler from SP) > Trireme > Granary

I've sent scout East, where he locates a nearby good island for 1st expo and becomes an archer. He then goes further East and finds a couple larger landmasses far away. There are a couple of CS there, a few huts, and an unholy amount of Barbarians who are stalking him everywhere. It's all I can do to keep him alive, much less explore and pop huts. The land is decent, but nothing spectacular yet.

2nd MW goes West, finds a landmass with 2 CS, a middling Natural Wonder (I forgot which one), and pretty good room for 3 cities with good Moai potential. Problem with this landmass is that it is connected by shallow water to the mainland, so I'm going to have to expand and get defenses up quickly. And, yes, there are a bunch more Barbarians all over this place. It's going to take the MW many turns to clear this up, but at least I'll get some CS requests. I'm now considering grabbing Honor opener for the culture boost from all the barbarian kills that will be needed.

I've now settled 3 cities and am content to explore, get necessary techs, build NC, and then, happiness permitting, expand like a colony of unmolested rabbits. I've met 5 civs, and they don't seem to like each other much. I decided to sell embassies, as they won't be able to reach my capital for a long time. I've accepted a couple of DoF's and declined several DoW's. I'll start accepting DoW's if they don't start fighting soon. I've got no resources yet, but some horsies and iron coming soon. I definitely want to stockpile gold, as I want my proposals passed ASAP.

This is shaping up like a very fun, and different for me, game.

View attachment 384586

t190

Spoiler :

I had to replay about 40 turns as I'm an idiot and forgot to take Honolulu off of Production mode after building settlers. I tried to duplicate my earlier steps, but Monty had settled on the nearby larger island, so I sent that settler off to the other big continent. Everything else worked out about the same. Ended up with a Lib/Tradition SP path, then grabbed a couple in Patronage before Rationalism.

This is pretty slow going. Founding your capital on t9 is a bit of an issue, but I knew that going in. Growth has been awful, as both my early food cargo ships got plundered by 4 barb ships that came out of nowhere. Worst part was, I had sentries up protecting those routes, which I rarely do, and I still got plundered. I finally got out of negative gold around t180, but that's about to change as Honolulu is about to finish its' harbor connecting all cities. The other big issue here is that Honolulu is not in range of any other cites for ITR. I didn't count on that. Instead of 15-20 GPT plus some science, I had to send later cargo ships to the far continent to trade with CS for a measly 7-8 GPT. Happiness has been on again/off again, but I finally have a good merc CS ally, and he provided 2 WLTK's and I took a couple of tenets in Patronage, so I should be able to hold a couple of allies……if I can bank some gold. I've done no trading because basically I've lacked any and all resources.

This game is going to be all about a late game culture push, and it might even work. I've won every CS culture request, and have some really good Moai expos recently settled. My diplo strategy has been to be friendly, but not too friendly, to everyone, avoid all conflicts, and pray nobody comes after me before I get some bribe goodies. I've basically got 2 iron near my territory, and settling on a bigger deposit just wasn't in the cards (I spent about 120 turns barb hunting). If anyone does attack me, I'll last about 3 turns, but if I can stay peaceful until ideologies, I'm going to be fine.

2 ideologies taken so far; Inca > Autocracy, Japan > Order (seems backwards). No clear runaways, as everyone has been fighting off and on, with several cities falling.

One bit of good news is that 3 civs went Piety and none took Sacred Sites as a reformation belief. With the amount of culture I'm pumping out, I'm going to go for that for a late push after ideologies. My 1st 2 cities' religion is pretty safe, and the far continent is now all following the Holy Order of Shark Diving (amazing what 2 missionaries can do without competition). I've got Pagodas up in 5 of 7 cities, and should be able to get 2 more at 300 faith. I'm done building cities, I think.

I'm still only 11% behind in tech, which is pretty surprising. The mainland wars must really be delaying everyone else.

t237

Spoiler :

Everything's going OK. I've allowed several civs to settle near me on the 2nd continent, but I got most of the good spots. It was better than losing my capital to a war I cannot win. I'm catching up in tech (sort of).

It's time for ideologies (I'm 6th to choose ideologies, built 3 factories), and things couldn't have worked out much better.



Yeah, I'll be taking Order. Hotels will be up in 10-20 turns and I'll be happily greeting the other nations as they visit the Hotel Kamehmeha to see the lovely view of Moais (I'm going to have a ton of 4+ Moais by the end game.

Now, I've just got to stay out of wars long enough to build up a bit better defense and this will be a sloooooowwww CV. I've finally got SOME resources to bribe with.

PT will be mine shortly (yeah, that's late), and I've got GE's ready for Eiffel and whatever other wonders I need/want.

Shaka is almost out of the game, and I'd be surprised if Poco or Lizzy lasts until the end.

t293

Spoiler :

We're down to 6 civs, but Monte and Lizzy won't last the decade. I've almost got all of my hotels built and am almost at airports, kicking out 600 BPT. After that, it's off to find Al Gore and invent some internet action.

I've managed to stay peaceful and haven't even had to throw very many bribes out, although Oda showed up at my door with about 25 ships, only to turn right around to defend his homeland. I'm alternating buildings with units in most cities, but there's no way I'll avoid losing cities if someone decides to get angry.



That's about the most overmatched I've ever felt militarily, but it isn't quite THAT bad. I've got a few battleships, subs, and bombers guarding Honolulu and the 2nd continent has a few GWI's from CS gifts.

Speaking of CS gifts, I'm rolling in them now. I finally took control of World Congress on t291, spending all of my 1000 gold to buy 2 last allies, leaving me broke again.



I wouldn't stay broke for long, as I lost out on Cristo Redemptor on t292 by 3 turns, which pocketed over 1000 gold. It did cost me a GE, which sucks, but I've got faith aplenty and no real place to spend it on (I'm now losing religious battle on 2nd continent, but will send a GP over shortly to right that matter). Also on t292, I finally hit another Golden Age and I've got 3 GA's parked, so I should stay Golden for the rest of the game.

Big decision now is what to propose at WC. All of the Big 3 (Casimir, Dildo, and Oda) have recently finished Manhattan project. I don't think I'll ban nukes, as I'm going to lose if there is a war anyways. I'm actually pleased that they are all on that tech path as I'm only 5% behind, which tells me they've either skipped flight/airports or they are skipping Internet (I THINK that's what that means). I'll probably propose World's Fair even if I can't win. I could use a couple of SP's and a bit of goodwill fits right into my pacifist game plan.

It's slow as molasses, but I can now see possible salvation/victory on the horizon. This has actually been pretty darn fun so far…..hoping nobody spoils the ending.

t375 Painfully slow science victory.

Spoiler :

Around t295 I realized that CV was going to be extremely hard to pull off so I switched paths to science. England had built almost all of the mid-game cultural wonders and was a cultural beast. I couldn't even get a trade route to her, much less open borders. When she went Freedom and Casimir built Great Firewall, I think the decision was justified. Even with a legion of moai's, I don't think I would have gotten enough tourism in time, as there was no way I was winning International Games (I got crushed in WF and barely got my silver medal, even with a Golden Age).

To be honest, it's probably the best job of diplomacy I've ever managed, as I never got around to building much of a defense outside of Honolulu. I simply kept bribing one potential invader off against the others. The warmongers on this map complied very nicely and I never fired a shot in anger the whole game. Late game, I convinced Japan to DoW Poland and the landscape became a nuclear wasteland:



I had a ton of faith and an extra GE already, so, with the free one from Order finisher, I popped 4 GE's to build SS parts. Casimir was only 1 part away, so this came down to the wire, mostly because Honolulu wasn't the production beast a capital should be at this point (it took 4 turns plus a GE to build each part). I had the technology with 10 turns to spare, although I never did pass up Poland for tech lead.

Overall, it was a very fun game and map (someone might be back on my Xmas list). It was a very late win, but I'll take it given the uphill battle and the fact that I had to change directions and made a few mistakes.

 

My lord, this one is a doozy. I'm less likely to get pasted across the wall (DCL #4) but wow ...

Thanks for this! I'm not likely to win, but it should be interesting.

 

Oh now you need to stop that lol!! You are doing a fantastic job and map/civ should not really matter to me if I really play out my games a little slower and think a bit. I only request stand/stand for my games really. Not that I wouldn't play a quick/small game but it seems that stand/stand is now my standard type of game that I want to play.

I will give this game a go very soon! Im a little busy watching movies and trying to stay as high in the clouds as possible. I've tried to play this game while up there... although it is fun for me my game really suffers and I keep forgetting what I am doing

Anyhoo... it is a nice change of pace to see the host actually playing out the maps and giving his/her two cents. I appreciate that and I appreciate the thought that goes into your process for making the game as hard as possible!! Keep up the good work Grendeldef!

(Also it is good for me to try this Civ out anyway since I never play Hawaii but please give us India next, I've been waiting almost a month for that challenge )

 

Sorry, this map is way too hard for me.

The Rome one was too.

I think that 'pro' Deity players have enough in the way of challenges trying to get quick win times in the HoF, etc. I'm of the view that the DCL shouldn't be so hard that only the best Deity players can get there.

The fact that many 'top' players struggled with the Rome map and that I think THIS one is even harder, tells me that perhaps the kind of player that I am:- e.g. an Immortal player that wins on Deity 40-50% of the time (with the maps that I play) is disenfranchised by maps that are too hard.

I appreciate the job being done by the OP, stepping up to the plate and providing a service for the rest of the forum, I would just politely request that he finds maps that are a bit less 'WTF'

Spoiler :

I don't mind the Terra map. I don't mind the insane neighbours. It's the lack of good ground that pushes it over the edge for me.

Unlike posters above who had success with their Settler, I played this map three times without success. First time I settled on the coast just south of the starting location, made a scout and sent him out but he didn't find anything for like 30 turns. Meanwhile the lack of good dirt made me unable to grow or make hammers for defence.

Second time I sent the Settler off straight away and despite the sight advantage he landed on an island which we can safely say was named 'Barb Island'. No sooner did he land than he was trampled by a horse and captured.

Third time I sent him in a different direction and he was trampled, this time by a Galley.

Not fun for me, sorry.

 

Doozy & interesting - the map has achieved it main goals then and actually being unsure of victory on any turn is welcomed optional extra.

Yup, I wish Dingle would share his playthroughs as well nevermind if he knows or not the map etc in advance - there'll never be too many submitters anyway.

Regardless of how Pro Deity players is described as an entity the Rome map wasn't hard, just a bit slow to get going like Glory's sub T200 win sort of proves - this one however maybe even hard(ish).
The submitting playerbase is so small anyway that things like majority and most lose much of their meaning. Apart from me & Pedro there haven't been too many participating in all of the challenges so there must be other resons for absence than hard maps. For the challenges 1-8 only #4 had a potential of being hard and that was due to proximity of Shaka much more than anything else.
On the other hand quite a few people identifying themselves as Immortal players have bee successfully beating the early game hence I'd say the maps have been too easy to be an accurate description of Deity. It's not to say that Immortal players aren't welcomed and even more so to become Deity players but there's also something wrong if the vast majority of Deity challenges are for Immortal players - the Gustavus Rex's current ICL series seems more appropriate place.

No worries. As I said in the OP let the normal mode resume with the next DCL but as Dingle was likely unable to post a new challenge in time I shamelessly took the opportunity to bump up the average difficulty of the series and I'm not sorry for that. What I'm sorry about is that there're people wanting to play but can't overcame the bad start - it's still a possibility to learn. Overall it's a rare opportunity to be actually threatened by the AI.

As for my game - it's still on T38 as I tried out BE yesterday instead but I should be able continue later today.

 

I completely appreciate your points of view, Grendel.

Sadly, the Immortal challenges are not what I, personally, am looking for. Most of them are either too easy or have maps I find very uninteresting.

I really enjoyed several of the DCL maps I have played so far, as much as possible for a domination player sometimes forced to take the SV/CV to enjoy winning. I've never submitted to the finishers spreadsheet because I want to be a firm Deity player before I do that. I'm a little embarrassed at how long some of the victories took me compared with other Deity victories I have enjoyed.

What do you think about the idea of me starting a challenge thread for players somewhere between Immortal and Deity and asking for submissions of maps that are challenging but not really challenging?

I mean, I understand that the best way to get better at something is to do it at a more difficult level. I've become an expert skier, mountaineer, runner and marksman from a novice position, and I learned how to play Deity not by moving up gradually but by playing it over and over. Actually, I struggled on Immortal before I started playing Deity but after my first Deity win I went back and saw what Immortal was like but found it to be much too easy. People have different views on how big the gaps are, but now that I can win 40-50% on Deity I find that the gap between Immortal and Deity is huge. As an aggressive war monger, on Immortal I can clear my continent PDQ and on Pangaea can get an army rolling that is so powerful it doesn't matter how much the other civs hate me. On Deity it's not that easy of course.

I love the idea of the DCL and respect that the direction it goes in should lie with the Deity players, and if they want more challenging challenges, maybe I can start something for those looking to 'break into it'? Whaddya think Grendel?

 

Short answer: I wouldn't want yet another ongoing challenge series.


The player base just isn't large enough to support several ongoing series especially with the launch of BE. While the passive members might find all the possibilities to check out what other are doing the incentive to do write-ups if there're only are one or two doing so diminishes quickly.

Rather than starting another series I'd suggest contacting Dingle & Gustavus and if possible, offer some challengeworthy maps to be shared. For easy maps I'm an avid supporter of self set rules to make it a) harder b) more interesting - it won't get you the fastest VC but that's not really the point either. For maps too hard there's little to do apart from good ol' L2P even if it sounds a bit harsh but that actually is somewhat the purpose of these series.

I also stepped in in that other thread using challenge in it's title so we could avoid confusions. If/when peeps have interesting starts not fitting into xCL schedule they want to share I'd start a new thread without them being described as challenges. One thread for all optional starts whatever it name might be. The tendency of these type of threads is that there's substantial early interest which dies out fairly quickly.

With one thread collecting all optional games it might survive in the first page of S&T for days to come and if not there surely wasn't much need for another series. Also the benefit of not making it a semi official series as such it doesn't require an active host or anything like that - people can join in more relaxed manner.

There's no way all games in all series will please everyone but reasonable variety even with few over-the-top challenges should keep enough people interested to keep the series alive.

 

@Consentient

Your description of your playing ability is pretty similar to my own, so I think I get where you are coming from. Personally, I love the last couple of maps, as they are not something I would roll for myself (I'd just re-roll if I got either start). I also agree about Immortal games now; once I got a decent grasp of Deity play, I went back and played some Immortal. It was a bit easier than I had remembered. My point is, if all challenges were Pangea, I wouldn't play them. I love the variety of play style unusual/challenging maps provide, and reading others' experience (sometimes drastically different) is what keeps me coming back.

I got my rear-end handed to me on Rome (If I went back and played it a 3rd time, I'm not sure I could win). This map, I had a bit of luck with my settler, but the jury is still out

Yeah, the Byzantium map was one of my favorite games ever.

Regarding submitting to the finishers spreadsheet: can someone please tell me how to do this? In the last couple of weeks, I went back and played the older challenges, and I'd like to be able to submit my games. When I went to the spreadsheet, it wouldn't allow me to enter anything.

Lastly, regarding finishing times: THIS is a topic I've been pondering for awhile. People on this board love debating who the best/worst civs are and many strive for the fastest finishing times and use that as a criteria. Personally, as one who HATES losing, I prefer a civ AND play style that increases the likelihood of winning more than the speed of such. I'll slow down a win time to detour for some military tech, just to reduce the chance of losing to randomness.

 

You're not supposed to edit it by yourself - that's Dingle's doc hence he has the rights for editing but as he hasn't been online since the 9th it's not up-to-date by any means. Hopefully Dingle returns soon and updates the spreadsheet, too.

 

OK, I agree Grendel, and I have no desire to start a thread that distracts from others or peters out after a short time.

I'll put some maps together and send them onto you and you can see what you think. I really think that it would be nice if there was a map/civ/dirt combination that allowed for different play styles to all flourish. I mean, domination was pretty tough on the Ethiopia map, for example. I'm not saying people shouldn't go for CVs and SVs but I also hate getting 100 turns in and realising that I'm gonna HAVE to go for them if I want to win the game (which is not to say that a better player couldn't have gotten a DomV with them, since they did).

I was thinking of seeing if something cool could be done with Celts or Egypt.

 

Don't think it's as hard as it sounds though. IMHO, it all breaks down to the amount of available land for AI to settle. Clusterfight, which this map looks like, is exactly what you want if your goal is to keep AI tech rates on the down low. If some proper AI were to start on the other continent that would be the Real trouble (Casimir?) Dealing with overseas scientific runaway after slowly grinding through undoubtedly difficult AI counterparts can become mission impossible. Then again, one can always change gear and go for diplo.

 

I would be impressed if someone pulled off a Diplo win on this map. My experience is that GPT is lacking big-time.

 

Squeezed in some 40 more turns to have at least some sense of the game.

Spoiler :

Met Monte's settler early and apparently managed to scare it away. DoWed him on T8 for a free worker but didn't even try another as it wouldn't have survived even the next turn. Teched for mining and did some deforesting near Honolulu to equalize the movement with Jaguars. Shaka & Casimir checked my borders early so I paid Shaka to attack Monte on T22. Due to faith ruin got a pantheon on T38 where I stopped before the challenge. Without any obvious choices I took One with Nature and planned to settle the 2nd continent beside NWs but that's yet to happen on T75.
Since I wasn't coastal the plan was to settle quickly another city and send a settler trailing the one of the scouts to the other continent. This failed as it took some time to get the first settler out and Casimir with largest army and Honor start darkened my horizon so I denounced and he attacked next turn. I wasn't in any great danger of losing Honolulu but I didn't have many workable tiles either so growth was halted and production slowed. Luckily Shaka kept the Aztec main pack busy.
Befriended with Japan, Monte is friendly after the war as is Shaka. Dido & Pachacuti offered DoF but I refused as both are warring with Shaka who isn't keen on DoW Casimir which I'd prefer as he still has the largest army. Lizzy tried to settle near my capital but due to mine & Polish troops she didn't fit in.

The 2nd continent looks better than average but I don't have a detailed plan for settlements yet. The major difference in this game is that as I wasn't thinking of DCL at start I opened Tradition for giggles so this will something different to my clean sheet with Liberty & domination so far.
As long as the others are willing to war just keeping the capital intact should be enough to win but I'm trying to think of something on top of that. Early or even XBow conquering is probably already out of the question. At this point it seems that I'll have a hard time growing the capital and since the 3rd city will be planted after the NC and not on T60 or before it'll take some time to get rolling.

It's been ages since AI apart from Shaka has properly attacked before T50 so a fresh start in that respect -otherwise everything is like a slow-mo movie but that was expected.

 

my initial contact with the map was not encouraging (hard map) and XCOM long war Beta 14 is out...
But I will complete this challange ...eventually

 

People have been saying that this is not as hard as it seems and so forth, but no-one has actually posted a win yet and only one person an advanced turn count. I feel vindicated

Or, maybe everybody's just playing other games?