[RD] The Democratic Nomination

[Lexicus]

For a third party to supplant one of the current major parties (or create a sustained 3 party system), the voters have to accept the idea that they will lose and then have to unite behind the protested party over and over for decades, building their numbers between cycles as they increase their media presence and familiarity within the electorate. The Tea Party seems to be trying to do this. Voters hoping for a 3rd party to deliver fast, radical, turning-the-system-on-its-head are in for continued disappointment, which is exactly what many 3rd party voters seem to be after, and is why 3rd parties don't gain traction.

Third parties can be viable on a sectional basis too (like the early Republican Party).
Broadly speaking the US Constitutional system is designed to frustrate rapid change within the political system so it can happen either outside electoral politics (1960s) or when one party or another gains a massive mandate to enact a sweeping policy agenda (Republican victory in 1860, New Deal era).

My advice to those considering third party votes in this cycle has been basically, vote for Hillary for president and release your revolutionary impulses by thinking long-term and locally. Build something at the level of your community, where third-party ventures stand a much better chance of succeeding than they do at the national or even state level.
That's the major flaw in the Bernie-or-Bust logic, they think simply electing Bernie Sanders will change everything when (as Bernie keeps telling them, but they won't listen) "the President can't do it alone." Their vision is of top-down change, which just ain't gonna happen.

Protest voting is such a gamble, because if the protested party wins anyway the protesters might just be marginalized, whereas if the protested party loses, the wrong "lesson" is learned, and they move their policies in the direction of the winning party instead of the direction of the protesters. I know the point of protest voting is to try and force the protested party in your direction, but I don't think it actually ends up working that way.

Well, it depends where you're at. My protest vote for Jill Stein in DC isn't a gamble at all, it's just a petulant middle finger (a well-deserved middle finger, but nothing more than a gesture) to the Democrats.
But in the larger sense you're exactly right. Robert Reich made this exact point not so long ago: lots of people were saying "we have to send a message to the DNC by not voting for their corrupt candidates!" Reich replied: they only way the DNC is going to "get the message" is if Trump wins the election, or if the Republicans win big in the Congressional elections, or both. And you've added a new wrinkle: the message they'll get is "move further right".

 

[Gary Childress]

Well, it depends where you're at. My protest vote for Jill Stein in DC isn't a gamble at all, it's just a petulant middle finger (a well-deserved middle finger, but nothing more than a gesture) to the Democrats.
But in the larger sense you're exactly right. Robert Reich made this exact point not so long ago: lots of people were saying "we have to send a message to the DNC by not voting for their corrupt candidates!" Reich replied: they only way the DNC is going to get the message is if Trump wins the election, or if the Republicans win big in the Congressional elections, or both.

Would a vote for Dr. Stein amount to nothing more than a symbolic middle finger? If the Green Party could muster 15% of the vote they can get into the national Presidential debates. That would be huge. The Libertarian Party already has around 10%, so they're getting close. A fourth option (the Greens) to offset the Libertarians seems like it ought to be healthy.

 

[Lexicus]

Them being in the debates would be a huge...symbol

 

[Gary Childress]

Them being in the debates would be a huge...symbol

I don't know. I can actually get behind Dr. Stein's proposal that we declare a national emergency to redirect our efforts to get us off dependence on fossil fuels. It would give the nation a worthwhile goal to rally behind, something pragmatic and necessary we can all work toward.

 

[Phrossack]

Sanders officially endorses Clinton. I hope that they can reconcile and that Sanders can get his supporters on board with this.