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The Desert and the Mountain - Empires of Africa

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Plotinus, Nov 8, 2005.

  1. Neonanocyborgasm

    Neonanocyborgasm Deity

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    Good to know for the next game, which I think I'll try as the Malinese.

    You know, it seems so unchivalrous for Saladin to bully me the way he does. :)
     
  2. johnnyjal

    johnnyjal Prince

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    This is a fast paced game that moves along quickly. I just started as Falasha
    and am well into it. Much different play than as Mali. Unmitigated violence is
    a good way to put it. Ethiopia went down easy but as soon as they were
    eliminated our allies Adal declared war. It was a stalemate. (those runners
    we start with were vital) At peace now but am sure we'll hear from them again.
     
  3. beboy

    beboy Ut tensio sic vis

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    Yep, Ayyubids also got a cultural victory with me while I was playing Makuria.. But it's easily understandable since they conquered Axum (Great Obelisk) during Ethiopia's territory public rampage. It's a pitty for me since I think I would have otherwise been able to build the Baqt before the end-turn... One thing I understood quite soon was if I didn't want to lose all my treasury in tribute to Saladin, the best thing to do was to find a way ...to make them pay me :) . And the best way to acheive that was to control Bejan's wine!:rolleyes: So I wiped out this pinky Bejan kingdom of the map and made Ayyubids pay the big price for wine. Anyway, I did notice somethnig very strange and frustrating at some point: in the last three bejan cities conquered (Suakin, Badi and Karora) I built cultural improvements (Tumulus, vaulted tomb, monastery) but the cultural points didn't cumulate so their cultural influence never expanded... :confused: Very strange indeed; do you think it can be a bug with the scenario or (more likely) with Civilisation? For reference, i add my last saved to this post.

    On a side note, I also played a game as Mali. I really LOVE the trade thing! While the other nations are fighting for the East of Africa, My Malians were constructing roads in the desert and enriching themselve with industrious trade across the Sahara!
     
  4. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Conquering Beja, eh - good plan! For all his bluster, Saladin is evidently no better as a Muslim than he as a man of chivalry, paying you all that for wine. Good use of desert cities, and I see you stacked up on Monks, which the AI rarely seems to do.

    As you can see, the game can be very unpredictable, partly on the basis of what the Ayyubids do. I've never seen them win culturally, and evidently in your game as the Falasha they weren't close to doing so, since you did so yourself. Their taking Axum was clearly a bit of a coup from that point of view.

    I played one game where the AI (not me at all!) all ganged up on the Ayyubids and actually kicked them out of Africa altogether, leaving them only with their holdings in the Levant. That's pretty unusual too, I think.

    At any rate, your captured cities weren't generating culture because of the government you were in. Check the pedia again! Under Christian Monarchy, any city with more than 50% foreign population won't generate culture.

    I'm glad you like the desert trade thing. Everyone seems to be building roads over the Sahara to facilitate it, which I didn't anticipate...
     
  5. beboy

    beboy Ut tensio sic vis

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    Oops, my negligence indeed :blush: Next time, I'll read more carfully before asserting imaginary bugs.. BTW, it's a very good idea and a lot more representative of the reality. Especially in the case of foreign population with a different religion!
    Just curious: how have you been able to acheive this property? Is it by checking the «xenophobic» feature of the Governement section of the Editor? (I don't know this feature since I never palyed a Fascist Governement in Civ)
     
  6. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Yes, that's right - it's what "xenophobic" does.

    I do think it's quite appropriate for this scenario. If you have a look at the pedia entries for the religious techs for the Nubians, you'll see that one of the basic problems with Makuria and Alwah in real life is that Christianity seems never to have penetrated to the countryside. It remained an urban, elitist religion. As a result, what seemed to be a strong Christian civilisation melted away when the government fell. The "xenophobic" tag emulates this to a certain degree, by requiring more central government control over the provinces in order to generate culture.

    No doubt it could be done much better in Civ IV, with its modelling of religion, but Civ IV modding has hardly reached a stage yet where scenarios like this can be made - even if I had it!

    I just checked this in the Editor and found that there are fourteen different governments in this scenario (not counting Anarchy)! I didn't realise I'd made so many. Governments can be quite interesting if you use all their potential, such as variable cost per unit, xenophobia, and so on. I don't know about you, but in the normal game the only ones I ever use are Monarchy and Republic - can never see the point of Communism, Fascism and so on - so it's easy not to recognise these effects when you *do* encounter them.
     
  7. dreadknought

    dreadknought timelord

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    Just downloaded this and it looks fantastic, can tell you really put alot of time/effort into this. Will report back on how my game goes, will play a game with Ethiopia as time permits. :goodjob:
     
  8. utahjazz7

    utahjazz7 Deity

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    I guess it's time for me to report, now that I've finally played a little bit. I ended up having to install CivIII on the computer in my cubicle at the university in order to play. :)

    I started my first game with a random civilization, and I was assigned to Ghana. I started really slowly because it took me quite a while to orient myself to all the new options and rules. I played for about 45 minutes before I had to go to class. While I spent most of the time being confused, it was still quite fun.

    Tonight I started a new game as the Alwah. I was attracted to their super worker, snice I generaly like to develop rather than conquer. I still got off to a relatively slow start, but I was able to slip some cities into the gaps between the other civs' borders. By building some early culture-producing building in my new cities, my borders expanded to include some resources. I'm essentially playing for a Baqt victory, as you suggest doing. I'm trying to be on good terms and actively trading with as many civilizations as possible. Fortunately, I haven't had anyone declare war on me! As I created a few embassies, I've noticed that the other civs garrison stores of units in their capitals. I'll let you know how things pan out.

    Overall, I'm really impressed with the scenerio. I really need to play more and more though in order to get accustomed to the new gameplay; it's really quite different. Once I learn the units and technologies, I should be okay though. I also need to get used to the civilizations; I had a big problem trying to figure out who I'm dealing with all the time. Those aren't problems with the scenerio though, rather myself.

    One thing that I personally would like, would be to have a little bit of the map revealed at the start of the game--maybe just an extra tile or two radius. Other than that, the only thing that bothers me is some of the unit graphics, but I understand that there is not a graphic for every unit in the game.
     
  9. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    I could try to help in that department actually. What units should be made that are the most important to the mod?
     
  10. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Aha! An offer!

    I shall have a think about it. Some African spear-throwing units would be nice, as the graphics I'm using for those (two of them) aren't ideal. There's also a paucity of African archers, and hardly any African swordsmen. So these are probably the ones that would be most handy. But any contributions are most welcome.

    Glad you're liking it, UtahJazz. It *does* take a while to learn a new scenario, especially when it's full of unfamiliar civs... Hopefully the pedia entries should help you work out what they're all about. Still, personally I like scenarios where you start off with few cities/units/etc, because then there's less to take in at the start, if you see what I mean! Alwah sounds a good choice for building, as they have the good Worker, are agricultural, and have good land to expand into if they are quick. I have never won as them - in one game I built the Baqt, and Saladin won by one vote!

    As for having more of the map revealed - that might be good, but I don't think it would work given that different civs are in different locations. That is, as I understand it, you can set it so that some tiles are revealed at the start, but they are always the same ones no matter who you are playing. And that wouldn't really work, given that you could be playing anyone from Ghana to Falasha. I'd prefer not to have all playable civs appear on the map right at the start. Still, it's a pretty small map, so it doesn't take long to explore or to trade maps.
     
  11. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    The Javelin Thrower looks rather odd running around in Hausaland. That's probably the graphic I'd consider most in need of replacement.
     
  12. AluminumKnight

    AluminumKnight Conquistador

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    After my attempt at Ethiopia, I decided to just go with random. Haven't gotten very far yet, but something rather surprising happened on probably around turn 20-25 (1057 AD)...
     

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  13. Neonanocyborgasm

    Neonanocyborgasm Deity

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    Just concluded a Victory Points win as the Malinese, on Monarch level with enhanced aggression. As in history, I was agressive in expanding my empire, consuming some Ghanan and Songhai territory, although never destroying them entirely. After picking up Kola Harvest and Gold Trade, I built Kola Storages and Gold Mines all over the place, then sent my Wagara Traders north, to the trade posts near Marrakech and Tunis. As before, I ran into obstacles, with Sarajah raiders occupying the square. I simply overpowered them with Wagara, then occupied the squares so that more caravans can deliver goods. This caused a HUGE VP point increase over the next 10 turns. Combined with a war against the Hausa, which ended largely in a stalement, I built up enough VP to score a win!

    In this game, the Ayyubids gave me trouble too. I managed to mollify them by forming ROP, then agreed to their alliance against the Hausa. I had to declare peace early, though, which turned the Ayyubids from Gracious to Furious. I was hedging my bet that I could earn enough VP to secure a win before Saladin could get his forces that far over Africa. Turned out I was right.

    Another unexpected event in this game was the early destruction of the Falasha AND the Adalians at the hands of Ethiopia. Ethiopia became this East African military AND cultural juggernaut, building wonders like crazy, and eating up the Ouddai before moving against the Ayyubids. Fortunately, they never threatened me enough to matter.

    Once again, great scenario, Plotinus!
     
  14. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    [TLC] I agree - I was starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel with that one. I think he just about passes the plausibility test, but it's close. I could have a go at doing a colour conversion to make his skin darker, but a custom unit would always be better.

    [AK] That's interesting - normally when Ethiopia defeats Falasha, it's because the latter's initial attack fails. Obviously in this case Ethiopia somehow managed to get their act together!

    [Nanocyborgasm] That sounds a really interesting game. Good to hear about the races against time and against the wrath of Saladin - that's the kind of thing we want! Ethiopia's success is pretty unusual again - I have never seen Adal destroyed in any game by anyone, so for AI Ethiopia to do it is remarkable. Goes to show that it *can* be done...
     
  15. AluminumKnight

    AluminumKnight Conquistador

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    In my game too, Ethiopia became a juggernaut. They finished of Adal a little later, and went nuts on the wonders. Because Ethiopia went nuts, I had barely any room... still trying to hold onto a diplomatic win, but 2 of my cities have flipped to Ethiopia. Saladin, though, is extremely strong. I thought maybe the Ayyubids would be under control since 4 civs (Housaland, Makuria, Benin, and Kanem-Bornu) all declared on him within 5 turns of each other. However, Makuria was crushed and Kanem-Bornu signed peace and then turned and signed an MA with Saladin against Housaland and Benin. Pretty soon Benin is going to be gone and I'm sure Housaland will follow. Saladin is unstoppable!
     
  16. Sildo

    Sildo A circle

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    Would just like to say that this mod is great. The detail and compleated text and civilapdia are what make a masterpiece to me. I am playing Gahna and did notice a few small problems though. In order for them to have any millitary unit what-so ever they need iorn, which is too far away from the capital to get AND you can't attack any cives (to get iorn) without it. Also, millitary victories, techs, ect. give VP, Was this intentional? Finally I think you should show the trade cives where the trade posts are in the begining, It might help the AI.
     
  17. Thorvald of Lym

    Thorvald of Lym A Little Sketchy

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    Looks great! Congratulations on your hard work :goodjob:

    If my connection wasn't on the fritz I'd be downloading it right now. Ah well, for now I'll just have to sit and sulk :crazyeye:
     
  18. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Thanks Sildo! Of course getting iron is one of the challenges facing Ghana - this civ is supposed to be harder than Mali, which is why its city placement is so bad (as it was in reality). Though there is iron not far away, so it ought to be possible to get - failing this, you can always go for horses instead. And yes, military victories etc give VP - this is because some of the civs, particularly Falasha, have this as their main way of winning. You're not going to be able to win purely on military VP as Ghana, though.

    Finding the Trading Posts is one of the things you have to do as a West African civ. But showing them at the start of the game would make no difference to the AI, because the AI can always "see" the entire map anyway.
     
  19. utahjazz7

    utahjazz7 Deity

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    Well, my game as Alwah ended unexpectedly. Everyone except me was attacking Ethiopia. I took advantage of the reduction in culturally-controlled territory surrounding the newly captured cities and placed a couple new cities to the south. I managed to get some furs by doing that. Earlier in the game, I had resisted changing governments to the Christian Monarchy, but when the opportunity to switch to Theocracy came, I couldn't resist. After a couple turns in Anarchy, I was blown away by the increased funds and technology rate I experienced! Wow. I was well on my way to researching International Negotiations (I think that's the name.) and building the baqt. Then the Ayyubids suddenly won a cultural victory. They had taken control of a few great wonders from Ethiopia. Oh well. At least the AI had a good laugh while shooting suction-cup-ended darts at my picture on the wall.

    After that I wanted to exeriment with Falasha. I lost a couple of games really quickly--once in less than a minute--but then I finally had success. The Ethiopians were destroyed pretty quickly. When I was able to, I built embassies in in the capitals of the surrounding civilizations. Most of them had one unit defending the capital, and I still had one Falashan Runner. So, I quickly took out Alwah and Merkuria. I even picked up a great leader, which I used to make an army with two Rebels loaded. My civilization was looking good, so good that Saladin wanted it. He attacked me for no reason, as far as I can tell. It took me way too long to be able to reasearch the tech required for alliances, but the Ayyubids certainly made enough of them against me: Ouddai, Kanem-Bornu, Ghana, Mali, Housaland, etc. Fortunately, not all of them were actually sending troops over. Still, I just couldn't compete. I had a stalemate in the north with the Ayyubids, but I was losing territory in the East and Southeast to Ouddai and Kanem-Bornu. Eventually, I was able to sign alliances with Adal against the Ouddai and Yemen against the Ayyubids, but these didn't help too much. Now Beja's one city is also at war with me. Help . . . ;)
     
  20. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    Utahjazz I have a question, do you think your Atl-Atl is generic enough clothing wise that if I were to recolor it to look African there shouldn't be a problem?
     

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