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The Desert and the Mountain - Empires of Africa

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Completed Scenarios' started by Plotinus, Nov 8, 2005.

  1. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    The clothing is probably fine and it might look good, but I don't think it would suit, because African warriors wouldn't have used the weapon thrown by the Atlatl man. It should really be a full-size spear being hurled, or a bow and arrow.

    I did do some colour conversions of the most appropriate units I could find, but often without much success! The most acceptable ones are all in the mod. Luckily both UtahJazz and Kinboat have made a number of "warrior"-ish looking units which were good for this.
     
  2. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    I just learnt that the oldest known atlatl is from Europe, and about 20k years old.

    However, they never were as important in the Old World as in North America.
     
  3. dreadknought

    dreadknought timelord

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    Well first game just ended with no-one winning any of the victory conditions after 200 turns. Ayyubida was very close with 4991 culture points--11480 VPS.

    I was beat down to 1 city, but in time was able to re-build another close by and was starting to rack in a decent amount of cultural points. It seems to me that the best bet for Ethiopia will be cultural victory if they can survive long enough. The only reason I survived at all were multiple wars broke out all around me and I kinda survived by my enemies being tied up in other wars.

    The Makurians built the baqt but never confirmed it and were ahead in culture up to the last 20 turns or so.

    One thing that surprised me a little is mounted units can travel across mountains w/o roads.

    No tie breaker victory if the game ends.

    Wondered if the 1 city cultural point victory condition should be lowered, no one city had much more than 1k.

    All-in -all a very interesting--rewarding game..Congrats again, love the variety in the game. Will try Ethiopia again with some different tactics.
     
  4. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Thanks for the comments, dreadknought, and thanks for the nice write-up in Loulong's thread!

    I didn't know that no tie-breaker was happening. I can't think why that is, as I thought it was automatic that if no-one's won by the end date the person with the most points wins. I don't know that it's a big problem, especially as it seems somebody usually wins before then (usually Saladin, one way or another!). Interesting to see Makuria doing well enough to build the Baqt - I have never seen the AI do this.

    Yes, mounted units can travel across mountains OK, although as far as I know they can in the main game too (it's wheeled units that have difficulties). You're only allowed one kind of "restriction" like this in a game, and I used it to keep most units out of the desert.

    The one-city cultural victory is pretty much impossible, but I didn't anticipate it being achieved. Cultural victory in this scenario is civ-wide rather than city-specific.
     
  5. dreadknought

    dreadknought timelord

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    Well we wont speak again of the disaster of game 2 with Ethiopia/monarch level/. Suffice to say alot of people ganged up on me quickly. Onward to the 3 try.
     
  6. dreadknought

    dreadknought timelord

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    Do the 3 holy relics produce culture or add some value to Ethiopio, I say that in the context that they should add some type of value to the civ. that protects them, culture seems to make sense.---thx---
     
  7. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Yes, it would be good if they somehow provided culture, but there's no way to do this (the only way to make a unit give culture is if you sacrifice it). Really the relics are just there for Falasha to try to destroy. So the only benefit they give Ethiopia is as defence - which is quite important in itself, given the onslaught Ethiopia faces at the start. If you can think of anything more interesting they can do, that would be good!
     
  8. Rambuchan

    Rambuchan The Funky President

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    I know this is a slightly dated conversation Plot but I did promise to get back to you on it.

    I think you are right about your Ghana and Mali placements actually. The thing which I think lead me to question it is that you have different timescales sitting together, namely an 11th century Ghana with a 14th century Mali. With a little bit of sniffing around on the subject I support you in the decision to include them both despite differing timeframes. I reckon you made a fair decision for gameplay and historical awareness reasons. My doubting perhaps sprang from a lack of understanding of the Ghanaian history of this period (I'll be onto my friends for misleading me!) and a selective case of Malian history reading, which always placed them as more Saharan trade operators in my mind - at least that was their major commercial focus according to my previous knowledge.

    Here are some nice links on a site I found earlier in the day on the subject (my first day in which I haven't been madly travelling around N. American cities and highways):

    http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/maps/

    http://exploringafrica.matrix.msu.edu/curriculum/lm7/stu_7aactivityfour.html

    Hope these are helpful. Check out the info on many other parts of historical Africa by going through the internal links on the site. Rich ground for further African scenarios me thinks!

    PS. As an aside, you may remember me mentioning somewhere on CFC an East African kingdom which was infamous for and obsessed with building these large phallic monuments - well those links reminded me of the name - Axum!
     
  9. dreadknought

    dreadknought timelord

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    Hmmm, Well maybe they (in the rare event survive) have a quest/task to gain a gold bonus, have to have a realistic need to send them somewhere though, maybe a bonus to get them to a neutral safe haven.

    I think Im close to figuring out how to win with Ethiopio/monarch. Lost 4 times now but have had a revelation now as to why.
     
  10. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Not possible, unfortunately - the VP location/treasure unit system is being used for the West African trade routes! CivIII is such a pain to do this kind of thing - you have to twist and adapt the things it's got built in and you can't really add new ideas of your own. Good luck with Ethiopia, anyway...

    [Ram] Thanks for the links. There's some interesting stuff there. It would be fun to have a scenario about Great Zimbabwe, though I don't think I'd be the person to do it!
     
  11. Red Door

    Red Door Man of Mayhem

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    Wow, I finally found time to play this. And I must say, Nice Job!:goodjob: I am playing as Mali. I started exploring. I've explored all I can. Now Hausaland declares war on me after I refuse to give them slavery. I wipe out one of their cities with my Sahel Archers. Then the scums get Benin to declare war on me. I then get Songhai to help me and declare war on both of them. I send my force of archers into Benin. I wipe out the Benin civilization. Also, I declare peace (temporary) with Hausaland. Thats where I saved.

    Interesting notes:Ethiopia survived, but barely. They have 1 city left in the mountains. Also, Ghana is being very isolated. They won't let my units through to explore. I was about to invade them when I got war declared on me.
     
  12. EDaddy

    EDaddy Warlord

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    This is one of my favorite scenarios of Civ3!!! Plotinus, you did a great job devising this scenario!!!

    BTW, has anyone beaten the game as Ethopia? Ethopia is hard, but they have the most intresting storyline!!! How can you beat the Adals as Ethopia? They just keep attacking with their units and eventually they overpower me!!!
     
  13. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    Thanks, EDaddy! I'm glad someone with that avatar likes this one. Although I must say that I think Shiro's Musa LH (which is the one I'm using in this) is much better than the Civ IV Musa. Naturally.

    Ethiopia is certainly meant to be a serious challenge. I think the key to survival lies in not overstretching your forces in the early turns. If you try to retain all your cities, even if you succeed your troops will be too thinly spread to survive the next attack. So you have to make the decision which cities to abandon, and whether it's worth leaving a skeleton defence there to take some of the attackers down. But of course, you still want to keep as many cities as is feasible, and have a basis from which to counterattack. Then you have to decide how many of your resources to devote to (a) wiping out Falasha (b) engaging the Adalian invaders (c) settling and defending new areas and (d) building cultural improvements. Tricky!
     
  14. Asclepius

    Asclepius AWOL

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    Well, I finally got around to playing another game of Civ. My last game was six months ago when I very briefly tested the Beta of this scenario. I thought it was about time I tried out "the Desert" for real!

    I tried Ethiopia for starters, without realising that war with Adal was never ending! An excellent challenge but one that ultimately ended in the total destruction of the Falasha and the Adal :D In the end an easy cultural victory.

    I also tried my hand at the Falsha and was surprised at how easy it was to annihilate the Ethiopians, of course it did help that the Adal were keeping them busy in the south, not that they appreciated my help. I was well on my way to destroying them as well before I won a Victory Point victory :smug:

    A great, fast moving, action packed game. I don't think it is as challenging as "the Rood" as there is less diplomatic interaction required, but then it can be played to victory in 3-4 hours instead of 9-10. After playing one game of RFRE, on and off, for more than a month this is a refreshing change!!

    Another great game from the Plotinus Publishing House :goodjob:

    A small suggestion after playing the two mountain civs; make the bottom two rows of mountain tiles un-settleable (is that a word?!) to stop towns (like in the example below) from disappearing off of the bottom edge of the map.
     

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  15. Red Door

    Red Door Man of Mayhem

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    Yeah, Plotinus this scenario is one of the tops.
    Anyways, My Malinese Sahel archers have managed to destroy the civilizations of Ghana, Songhai, and Haasa.
    Perhaps a cheaper spearman or a better defensive one could stop my ruthless slaugtering. Anyways, a lot of the cities are size 1 so West Africa is riddled with ruins.
    I have 55 turns to go and soon I will try and launch the biggest invasion ever seen to Central Africa.
     
  16. dreadknought

    dreadknought timelord

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    Still havnt won yet, though last try was close. Was ahead with about 50 turns left when Ayyubids did a sneak attack even though I was on polite terms with them, though I do play with most aggresive AI on. Wasnt prepared to fight them and sort of held my own but lost ground to them. Still came in 2nd in culture and VP that game.

    One thing that surprised me was that the Ayyubids achieved a Culture point victory with around 20 turns remaining, but the game continued until time ran out. It didnt declare a winner, rather just that I had suffered a defeat from the time limit.

    I have figured out my (order of tasks) to win, just didnt quite pull it off yet, and dont wont to give anything away. Once again Makuria built the Baqt (2nd time) out of several games but have yet too see anyone confirm it.
     
  17. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    It's good to see that I've succeeded in creating a real challenge with Ethiopia - being a not-very-good player myself I usually seem to make things too easy for everyone else. The beta-testers commented on how easy Ethiopia seemed to be, so it looks like that problem, at least, was sorted!

    [Asclepius] Good idea about the mountains. I shall look into that.

    [dreadknought] Interesting that you're playing with maximum AI aggression. In fact the AI tend to be much more aggressive in this scenario anyway, because it's a relatively small and crowded map: this makes them much more prone to go to war. If Saladin is getting too big for his boots you may want to try it with the normal aggression setting.
     
  18. Sasebo

    Sasebo Prince

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    Plotinus- I have not posted on your scenario before, I am mostly tied up with various WW II and Teturkhan's big map scenarios, but I did give this a try last week. About 5 times with Falasha(That 'lose a unit and die' effect, mostly.:rolleyes: ) and about 7 times with Ethiopia. Eventually got winning games, but there is a learning curve with each civ I've seen so far. Which is really nice, and a real feat to see all the different victory conditions coming into play in a single scenario. A truly refined and excellent design, and it plays out very fast too, I love it! :love:

    I do think if you survive the opening with Falasha you are set to roll. If you get an army to put your two starting runners in it is all over. I did edit your scenario to stop culture flips, but I do that in every game I play since I loathe that part of the game with a passion. I'm sorry if that goes counter to your intent, but hey, I played Ethiopia that way too.:crazyeye:

    Not sure how other's see them, but playing Ethiopia I could not survive the early rush without going on the offensive myself. The Falasha and Adal both have great offensive units but they have poor defense; hitting them first seems to be the way to go. It was extremely bloody in any case. I am in the early phases of some of the other civs now, will post again when I can. Great Job! :goodjob:
     
  19. EDaddy

    EDaddy Warlord

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    So far, Mali & Alwah are my favorites. Here's why?

    Pros of Mali

    Mali is all about trade. That means all you have to do is get a good economy going and you're set! You don't have to worry about conquest (although I do go after the Benins) that much.

    Cons of Mali

    Weak offensive units.

    Also only in the case of Mali, you need 2 ROP aggreements to get trade going -- one for either Songhi or Ghana and one for Almoriads or Hafisids (I have NEVER gotten ROP from Ayybids -- even on good terms.)

    In the AIs case, the trade AI civs focuses on conquest over trade!!!! This makes the trade civs one of the less intresting civs to observe.

    Pros of Alwah

    Fast (and I mean very fast) workers. Also they can fight and hold their own in battle which is nice!!!

    The diplomatic game!!! This is one of the reasons why Civ3 is great!!! Get along with your friends and they'll support you in the end!!!

    Cons of Alwah

    Weak offensive units (again)!!!

    Weak defensive units as well unless you get Iron or a Desert Monastery.

    Nevertheless, I played Alwah with only 3 cities and I was able to hold my own against Ayybids!!! Unfortunately, they are less than 100 points away from a cultural win! :(
     
  20. Plotinus

    Plotinus Philosopher Administrator

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    [Sasebo] Thanks for the comments! Yes, Falasha+early army=absolute walkover. Could be a heap of fun, though. Good luck with the other civs - let us know how it goes.

    [EDaddy] Interesting analysis! Of course the weak military of both the West Africans and the Nubians is one of those things you must play around. The need for ROP treaties is also one of the problems you must deal with as the West Africans - and of course, if you're playing Mali it's good to try to block Ghana's expansion east along the Niger, so you have direct access to the desert.

    All the Desert Monasteries are by Makuria, as I'm sure you've noticed... That helps to offset the superior location and Worker efficiency of Alwah. Makuria clearly start with an advantage over Alwah (two cities rather than one), but a good player as Alwah should always be able to overtake them through aggressive expansion. Watch the diplomacy, though!
     

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