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The difference is education, not class

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hygro, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/08/opinion/democrats-david-shor-education-polarization.html

    The author tries to make it "class experience" but still betrays, simply, that it isn't. It's that educated people have a different set of values and preferences, regardless of class, which is defined by money.
     
  2. Joij21

    Joij21 Emperor

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    Well I think genetics plays a critical role when it comes to intelligence. Therefore education for all can't possibly educate everyone the same way for the same skill sets.

    Money and connections does play a big part however and can allow you to skip all the mental gymnastics without even trying. Humans are very corrupt.
     
  3. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    I am not convinced. In my university friend set, those who are now very well off have generally got pretty right, at least in the sense of not wanting to pay high taxes, and those on less have not.

    Is class really defined by money? It used to be defined by if you inherited a title (upper class), if you do physical labour (working class) or intellectual labour (middle class). Those are not so well defined by money any more.
     
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  4. Aiken_Drumn

    Aiken_Drumn King

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    Article is behind a paywall, can someone post it here please?
     
  5. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    Tor is your friend:

     
  6. Aiken_Drumn

    Aiken_Drumn King

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    Thanks, christ that was a overly verbose article. I got half way and I'm giving up.

    As such I'll answer OP rather than the article.

    I don't believe such a question can be answered so cleanly. Your upbringing, your morals, your experiences, your education, your luck etc etc, all factors that combine to give you your outlook on life.

    I would say that suggesting those without a thorough education automatically lean right rather than left is a damaging and dangerous opinion to have.
     
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  7. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    I agree with your point (both that the article is too long for too little content and that assumptions based on such gross things as "years in education" or "wealth" are dangerous), but I think the contention is that those with more education lean left not right.
     
  8. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I mean, I'd argue that access to education is thoroughly gated by class in the first place, as is the associated social scene and the impact it has into young adulthood, if not beyond. Wealth also correlates (though isn't always dictated by) class, too. I'm not sure I understand the criticism here.

    I agree with this particularly.
     
  9. Aiken_Drumn

    Aiken_Drumn King

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    I think that is a biased view, drawn from the authors own experiences.

    The first mistake is thinking in only Left and Right, when the political compass adds so much more dimension!

    I live in the Leftest part of the UK, my parents in one of the 'Rightest'. I was privately educated and earn enough to pay higher taxes.

    I believe in the NHS, in protecting those less fortunate than me. I believed in this from a young age. My University era brought me into contact with extreme lefties, and a fair few posho Tory's... but I already understood these to be extreme. This is despite a private education ages 11-18.

    Again, this idea that 'education makes you lefty luvie' is insidious.. Because it labels those who do not agree with the left as stupid and uneducated. It needlessly ostracises the poor and unfortunate. The 'educated left' needs to be intelligent enough to show the downtrodden how they are looking after them, and not just rights for the narrowest of the LGB+ communities.
     
  10. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

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    No, it's not a damaging and dangerous opinion. Leftwinged perspectives correlate to correct perspectives, and education corrects perspective.

    All this "it's not inclusive" or "it will hurt people's feelings" as more important than the truth is a problem.
     
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  11. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I mean, the easy win here is that there's a good correlation between (out, as in not-closeted) LGBTQ+ demographics and the downtrodden (for various definitions, homelessness, the poverty line, whatever).
     
  12. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    You could replace "inherited a title" with "inherited wealth" or "will inherit wealth" and it might actually still apply.
     
  13. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    It is more the other end of the scale that has got disconnected from income. As I pointed out in the UK thread about the booze paper, ~20% of the sample is in "class AB" (Upper/Middle middle class) and ~ 40% are C1 (Lower middle class), but less than 20% of the sample earns more than £25k. This is with UK median income at £31,461 a year. I have no idea how these work out in the real world.
    Spoiler The graphs from that thread/paper :
     
  14. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy syntax error

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    :lol:

    Especially if you're left-winged and you make your living telling other people what to think.

    Maybe it's gender-based, given the ratios in higher education, across all "races," across all classes, exacerbated by the pandemic. I'm going to go out and say it, I think the argument that it's ***s vs balls is a stronger theory than put forth by the author.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
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  15. Aiken_Drumn

    Aiken_Drumn King

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    That seems rather myopic? Left is no utopia. Telling the uneducated right simply that they are wrong, and not attempting to educated why, is part of what got us into this mess!
     
  16. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    Ah yes, please signal more how it's the people who aren't you that spend their time doing this ;)

    Howdy, welcome (back?) to OT. We have a Brexit thread already (if that's the mess, or maybe you're about a more general mess), but this is a pretty reductive take regardless, in my opinion.

    Is it a problem? Absolutely. But educated people talking down to those perceived to be without has been a problem throughout history.

    So I guess technically, you're right, but I think you meant something more specific than "generally it is a thing that causes problems throughout history". There are bigger parts of the mess that deserve identification (a good example is my reply to Farm Boy - we - generally, in popular culture - weight "left wing" talking down to people and "right wing" talking down to people differently - even when they're doing exactly the same thing).

    edited for clarity, about to rush out of the house and typing too fast
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2021
  17. Aiken_Drumn

    Aiken_Drumn King

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    The mess I am referring to is on the global scale. Lefties tell those that are not left, that they are not left because they are stupid. "If only you had more intelligence you would see our viewpoint!"

    The right instead blames money. "You don't have money, that is why life isn't perfect."

    Well, everyone believes they could have money, if they just were a bit luckier, or tried a little harder.. so don't take offence. No one likes to be called stupid though.

    Thus the left lose the uneducated poor, because we called them stupid. All the right did was call them poor.

    I don't mean to be reductive.

    Thankyou for your welcome, but with your join date of 2014, I don't think we have ever met?
     
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  18. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I dunno, I've been called thick all sorts of ways for all sorts of reasons, and yep, this includes "reasonably" right-wing people, and obviously the further-right as well. Anecdotal of course.

    To me, it feels like it's simply more optics of how "the left" is presented as acting, rather than how they're actually acting. But then again I define "the left" pretty strictly, to the extent that political parties don't often (at least in the UK) represent it well.

    And nope, never met! Just guessing based on your comment in one of the other threads, plus you seem pretty at home (not complaining, the activity is a good change of pace).
     
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  19. GinandTonic

    GinandTonic Saphire w/ Schweps + Lime

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    Perhaps in America. In the UK that would be wealth. There is even the saying that money can't buy you class. I grew up on a Council estate but with a lot of upper-class relatives. Plenty of upper-class people ended up on the estates, plenty of working class millionaires

    Withnail is posh but broke.

    Monty Python's four Yorkshiremen are fiercely working class millionaires.

    Ahh, man I wanted to add youtube links, but work calls. If anyone wants do do the honours feel free.
     
  20. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    Great scene:
     
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