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The difference is education, not class

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hygro, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Shades of the Sun Supporter

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    Hehe... That's your "white privilege" talking TMIT. You have the option to "see race where you want" ;). I don't. *(see footnote)
    Of course. But your qualification (bolded) of "more than", also concedes that race is at least part of what is implied by "genetics".

    * As a reminder... I was joking with you, but if you haven't seen a CinemaSins (aka "Everythng Wrong With" X movie) on YouTube you wouldn't get it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
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  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    It would appear you are seeing it where it is not, however.

    This is one of those "yes but actually no" things. The designation of "race" is arbitrary. Genetics does determine your skin color, and most other features of human beings that get arbitrarily lumped into "race". Genetics also determines a hell of a lot of other things that don't relate to skin color or other arbitrary "race" factors much at all. If you doubt this, look at a couple different black/white/Asian/Indian people and how they perform at various tasks and it should clear up doubt.

    Operating on the assumption that "genetics" necessarily implies race is like saying sugar necessarily implies taffy. I don't think you need to be white to see why that doesn't work in logical terms. Race implies genetics, but genetics does not necessarily imply race.
     
  3. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    Only for some values of race. For example most people consider the various ethnic disputes in the balkans race based, but you cannot distinguish serbs, croats and muslims by genetics.
     
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  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    Is it an ethnic dispute, a racial one, or a religious one though? If we accept there's a distinction between these, we should define our terms and use them properly in accordance with said definitions. Especially when considering factors people can (in principle) vs can't (even in principle, at least for now) control.
     
  5. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    This is a semantic question, and as most people consider it race then by definition it is. It is not like those involved could just change religion and be accepted as brothers by the other side.
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    Point being that most people categorize race by distinctive physical traits. If you then tell me that these can't be used to differentiate between a particular set of groups, it seems strange to call it a racial issue. Especially when history of similar-looking people from different countries with different cultures killing each other is so long/repetitive, same for religion.

    It's true that people define terms over time, but there are limits to semantics, and one of those limits is coherency. If we allow for country-conflict to count as "racial conflict", we must then accept propositions like "Rome vs Carthage was a racial conflict" or "England vs France was a racial conflict". Maybe Serbians would accept those propositions, but I at least have some doubt that a majority of them would. But if they do not accept those propositions, the idea that genetically-similar peoples fighting each other is nevertheless "racial" stops being coherent.

    If you allow a term to both mean and not mean the same thing at the same time, you no longer have a functional definition of the term, period.
     
  7. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    I think you are wrong, in particular the bolded statement. The most obvious example in the nazis and jews. Whatever they may have written about the jewish nose or whatever the reason they made them wear stars was because this distinction could not be made on "distinctive physical traits". Unless you are going with the holocaust was not racism you have to accept that racism is not limited to strictly genetics, but has a whole load of culture involved.
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    The holocaust was a lot of awful things, racism only being one of them. Fascism needed "others" to target, and it found them. I think a more accurate description is that the holocaust was not *exclusively* racism. Again, purging someone for their religious or political beliefs is an atrocity, but when those are the motivation, it isn't racism.

    It's actually not uncommon throughout history for nobility/ruling classes to shift blame for their own mistakes (being generous with the term here to keep things general) to the merchant classes and penalize them, to everyone's detriment long-term. Nazi Germany was particularly brutal in how it did so, and unusually focused in its targeting. Fascism (actual, historical fascism, not the nonsense thrown around today) is its own special kind of evil in that way.
     
  9. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    TMIT's mistake is to assume that race is something real, independent of culture, which humans can then decide to have a conflict over. This is false. Race is 100% cultural and has no relationship whatever to genetics.

    A conflict is racial if the participants treat it as racial. That is the end of it. There are no actual "races" to identify so that you can tell whether a conflict is racial if the parties are of "different races."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_antisemitism
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2021
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  10. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    For most people the holocaust was racist because it was targeted at jews as a race. It is kind of the definitional example.
     
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  11. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Education itself won't tie to how materialistic one is, but field of your degree might. One would expect mathematicians to be by and large a lot less materialistic than business majors.
    Class is about income, more specifically how financially secure you are under normal circumstances. One can have the most white-collar job and still be essentially working class, if they live wage to wage.
    Granted, there will be a sentimental and intellectual difference between (say) a private tutor and someone working at a warehouse, regardless of their monthly income possibly not being that far apart.
     
  12. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    I did not meet any business majors, but it is the mathematicians that are earning the most out of my university friends.
     
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  13. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    That's due to the simple fact that all of us learn as children:
    FUNCTIONS RULE THE WORLD.
     
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  14. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    It "kind of" can't be, since it makes clear distinctions between physical differences vs religious following, and certainly did not exclusively target only one or the other. You don't change race by following or renouncing a religion, so no. Holocaust indisputably had a racist component (since it did care about physical characteristics representative of a certain group of people, including both who was targeted and their own perceived superiority), but was not exclusively based on racism. Also not sure how it's relevant to earlier discussion wrt genetics being a legitimate factor in which way one leans.

    Again, the concept of "race" is arbitrary. But for it to have meaning at all, it *must* be differentiated from things like "country" or "religion". Otherwise we get nonsense like video game player race, bad driver race, transgender race, liberal race, far right race, and "people who like to pretend they're cats" race. If we allow any arbitrary criteria to define "race", then anything can be a race and every slight against a category of people is therefore racist. Not a useful way to use language.

    I obviously don't believe the above examples, but I don't see how the logic/standards you're using separates from these nonsense examples.
     
  15. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Are you under the impression that the Nazis would let Jews out of the Holocaust trains if they converted to Christianity?
     
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  16. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    That's like saying that eyes as being different organs from (say) legs is 100% cultural and has no relationship to genetics. Sure, without a language and an observer, eyes might as well be in oneness with everything else (including legs). If you just mean to say that "genetics" doesn't care about race; just not caring doesn't mean it's not related to it in various ways (such as the aforementioned capacity as ultimate enabler of distinctions to rise).

    Besides, I am sure the issue here isn't with what is down to genetics (when even color of your hair is down to genetics, it's pretty bizarre to argue color of your skin isn't), but with racist views about whether such traits actually connote something positive and negative. The former should not be confused with the later.
     
  17. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Its not useful to say something is down to genetics, because in biology everything is down to genetics, sooner or later. But not cultural constructs like race though.
     
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  18. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Yes, but the issue is that the creation of categories is also (ultimately) down to genetics. It's what humans do. I think the problem here is with racist theories, such as the 18th (?) or 19th century (or 20th century nazi :) ) german racial theory. The use of a category for people of different skin tone was there since forever, and obviously (as noted many times and as anyone can see) in the ancient times you weren't identified as better if you were whiter than white north european, since that meant you were a lame barbarian.
     
  19. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Pretty sure there were racists before Mendel! And I'm not sure its connect to say that the misuse and misapplication of genetics and related theory by racists means that the categorization is down to genetics.
     
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  20. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    In the way you alluded to ("anything is ultimately down to genetics"). That includes not just the ability to identify stuff as distinct and categorized, but extends to how each person will treat any such category all other things being equal etc.
     

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