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The difference is education, not class

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hygro, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. Samson

    Samson Deity

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    The labels that are used to differentiate race by racists are frequently genetic, as that is very useful for the racist. They are not always, religion and culture also work well in different situations.
     
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  2. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    This conversation is incredibly frustrating because we've had it a thousand times and the racists all use the same idiot motte-and-bailey and think people won't notice. The claim that race is social/cultural does not mean genetics doesn't affect physical appearance.

    Where the problem arises is the supposition that race is necessarily "based on" physical traits in any consistent (to use a word TMIT is so fond of) way. It is trivial to show that race has no consistent relationship with any physical traits. For example, two individuals with the exact same skin color considered part of two different racial groups. The complexity of relationships between actual genes and their expression as physical traits means that extrapolating any kind of necessary or consistent connection between race and genes is even more problematic and impossible.

    Racists want to pretend, desperately, that "genes affect physical appearance" and "race is genetic" are the same statement.
     
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  3. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Well, shouldn't it be evident that genetics couldn't inherently come up with specific categories for race (or anything else, mind; including my example about eyes juxtaposed to legs), yet provides the ability to form such categories? What I mean here is that I am not sure if what you do isn't overkill, in that the ability (or even will) to identify something as a category (in this case a "race") is there to begin with, and is itself a genetically created ability. If it wasn't, no degree of cultural input would create it.
    I think the problem here is with levels of interaction between a given ability (to come up with categories) and the will to do so. I don't think anyone is arguing that (say) to divide the world to the three german-theory races is anything scientific.
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    Even cultural constructs need coherent definitions for their terms. If everything can be racist, being racist is no longer a meaningful property.

    It must imply a specific type of discrimination to have meaning. When the same, singular action counts as both "religious persecution" and "racism", you no longer have a distinction between "religious persecution" and "racism".

    That distinction is still important, because people do, in fact, face discrimination for physical characteristics (and other similarly arbitrary properties) independently from country/religion. Racism and religious persecution are different things, and our model of the world should predict at least some different behaviors between the two, unless we *actually* believe they're the same thing despite evidence otherwise.

    ~

    I will again point out that this whole nonsense started simply because I said genetics was one factor among many in why people lean a certain way. This was (inaccurately, for reasons I've already covered) inferred as a racial thing.
     
  5. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    1. Tell it to the Jewish people. It can be both at once.

    2. Racists will shift modes when it suits them. They will move between physical traits, to ethnicity, to culture, to religion, whatever they think they can use. The inconsistency is on their part, and is deliberate. Perhaps you should ask them to consolidate and clarify their methods and the terminology.
     
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  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    Is inconsistency a real barrier to this kind of racial theory? It's pretty easy to just go (if you want to) with "people of relatively more x skin tone are a race". That'd be consistent enough.
    It's why what matters should be whether someone reads relative superiority/inferiority to such groups, and not whether they may identify groups or not (anyone is able to group something when there is an obvious trait to serve as the link).
     
  7. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Obviously not, because racists pretty much by definition are not concerned with things like intellectual honesty.
     
  8. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    I am just trying to have a worthwhile discussion. The gist of what I posted is that there are many more layers to the phenomenon of coming up with a category and promoting it, than what you picked up. This leads to misunderstanding as to what is happening as well as why. You (seem to) only see a fabled racist that will use difference in a trait like skin color, to promote a theory of superiority/inferiority as part of a cultural and varying set of hyperstructures, while the phenomenon of splitting stuff according to common and antithetical traits rests on an unvarying and singular substructure and doesn't tie to culture in any meaningful way.
     
  9. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd Shades of the Sun Supporter

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    And I will again point out that "this whole nonsense" started simply because you didn't get and/or couldn't take a joke. (re: CinemaSins / "Everything Wrong With" X Movie)
     
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  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam If A implies B...

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    Or we could just penalize discriminating on factors people can't control generally and protect freedom of speech/association (which includes religion/culture) otherwise, and affix whatever label we want to discrimination, if it lets people know what actions we're talking about...
     
  11. Sofista

    Sofista Deity

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    Apuleius, Apology (158 a.C., ch. 24).
     
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  12. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    Yeah, but Gaetulians . . . amirite?
     
  13. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Creator

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    The lesser of the two Lucians ^_^
     
  14. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    To get back more on track.

    Education is a proxy. Another proxy is reading.

    https://twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/1455153983170007042

    It's a fairly easy explanation for why election polling errors have been more biased to Republicans when Trump is on the ballot. Surveys capture an accurate percentage of noncollege whites for polling ... but end up catching far more readers. When they need to be finding those stupified by the TV.

    Plenty of people don't go to college, but still, have a learners mindset, and keep a critical mindset. While the natural conservative base is those who let the TV rot their brain.

    It's easy to see based on sources of information. Much of conservatives is radio or TV, and even the written word sources, are very simplistic, without serious examination of issues. And this is a piece written, by a conservative, with his built-in biases, and can't help throw in some of the usual screeds. (Its actually an interesting article in its own right, due to how rare a deeply conservative intellectual actually is at the moment, and seeing a thought process that while reasonable on the broad point, is still consumed by the same bugbears, grievance politics, and ambient racism as the typical conservative.

    But even he, can't help but note that Conservatives are literate shy, and driven by personalities and culture war. Liberalism is a natural evolution of ideology, while conservatism can be buffeted and switch from neo-cons to the tea party, to isolation belligerence, to anti-vaxxers. Conservatism being so empty of policy (with Trump outsourcing his policymaking to Paul Ryan in his early Presidency, to Mitch McConnell, then to Nancy Pelosi during the covid era where she and her people largely wrote the big COVID relief bills) isn't a Trump thing, it is just what they are becoming. The GOP had a ton of trouble just writing a tax cut bill, a basic idea they all agreed with, because much of the caucus were Tea Party Loons. Let alone repealing the ACA effort.

    Being devoid of policy and of basic ideology, however, makes them very easy to whip up to authoritarian ends. They don't have a principled ideal of freedom, they do what Trump or Hannity, or Tucker scream at them to do, and call that freedom. The perfect base for pure demagoguery.

    So if you want to know, why the GOP is warring against education on all levels, banning books in Texas, spurring hatred against universities, removing history from high schools, cutting education funding, etc. It's because they know who their base is, and who their base isn't.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2021
  15. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Strongly suspect union membership is more predictive of Democratic voting among non-college-degree whites than reading is.
     
  16. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    Did I claim that reading was the only proxy? Of course, Unions are more Pro Left, which is why the GOP is also warring on them (barring Police Unions of course).

    But while I don't have the data, I strongly suspect that Union Membership and Higher Reading levels are also interlinked to a degree. Just from personal experience.
     
  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Probably also true.

    Problem is, too often the Democrats have seen unions as just another special interest. This is suicidal.
     
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  18. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    Absolutely agree. The biggest thing that flipped say Wisconsin, is this graph, not any of the tactical decisions of 2016.



    Obama not going to war with Scott Walker, did more to cost Clinton (and nearly Biden) Wisconsin, than anything either of those did campaigning

    Democrats never work strongly to partisan advantage in shaping the battlefield. Republicans went after Trial lawyers, just because they were a niche donor base for Democrats. Unions, education, everything.

    At least the Pro Act is still in the reconciliation bill (for now). Might help Unions bounce back marginally from their nadir.

    If Democrats wanted to build partisan advantage, and do some good, destroying Multiple Level Marketing would probably be a union scale hammering of a leg of the Republican Party, and do some general societal good. Just listened to some stuff about Amway, and they got up to a lot for the GOP.
     

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