The Domestic Leader Position

[eyrei]

I have a two-fold purpose for this thread.

1. I wish to figure out how the general populace thinks I am handling the Domestic Leader position. I have attached a poll, and welcome comments, assuming they are not too ugly.

2. I also wish to make clear what I believe to be this positions responsibilities and powers, as this is historically(from the civ2 game) a very influencial position. Additionally, I wish to know what others think the responsibilities and powers of this position are.

To begin with, it was The Duck of Flanders' intention that the department heads have more formal power in the CIV3 demo game than they did in the CIV2 one. I believe this is intended to keep the game moving at a faster pace, and to keep the forum from being overwhelmed with polls. Thus,

The department heads have the right to break ties or make decisions on their own.

Another quote from the constitution and my interpretation:

Domestic Leader: Makes decisions about settler allocation, wonder building, city queues, etc. Is the governor of the first province. Decides on the science/luxury/taxes rates. Maintains the budget of the nation.

I read this as meaning that the domestic leader ultimately decides where to place settlers, where and what wonders to build, and what to build in cities as far as a standard queue goes. Since CIV3 is far more complicated than CIV2, standard queues are rarely a good idea, so this part should be removed, if that was indeed what it meant. Placement of settlers definately falls under the realm of the domestic leader, though a cabinet vote called by the president can override these decisions. I believe the same goes for wonder building. As far as being governor of the first province goes, well, this is moot until we decide on provinces, but should be pretty clear once this is done. The governor of a province decides what those cities should build. He/she is free to post polls, or obtain other input, but is not bound by these sources. A cabinet vote can override these decisions. Once our economy actually exists, the domestic advisor will have control over the economic sliders, and, again, a cabinet vote would be required to overturn this decision.

Due to recent events, two questions have been raised.

1. Do cultural improvements fall under the jurisdiction of the governor of a city? In my opinion, yes. The clause in the constitution needs to be changed regarding the cultural ministers power to override a governors decisions when cultural improvments are concerned. As the empire grows, it will become very clear that this places far too much power in the cultural leader that should be in the hands of the governors. That clause was meant to impart the power of the cultural minister to insist on the building of a cultural improvement in a border city, if that city is losing a culture battle with a foreign city. It doesnot mean that the minister of culture must approve the construction of any cultural building. Almost half of the buildings in CIV3 are culture related.

2. Who decides about rush-building with population?

As I interpret from the consititutional quote, since the domestic leader controls the budget, and would be in charge of rushign improvements with money, he/she would also be in charge of rushing things with population. In my opinion, because of the seriousness of this, and many people's feelings that pop-rushing is just wrong, the domestic leader should have to post a poll each time this is an option being considered. The domestic leader would then be bound by the results of that poll, although he/she would be able to break a tie.

Let us please clear this up. Supposedly, the domestic leader is allowed to do certain things without the permission of the rest of the populace and cabinet. However, it seems every time I make a decision, the constitution is thrown in my face, and someone is telling me I was not allowed to do that. No offense intended to anybody. I really just want to clear this up.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

I didn't want to vote myself as I am not sure that is a good thing for one cabinet member to rate another. Plus, I think we will all be rated during the next election cycle.

Let me add my view though on the two topics you raise.

In terms of the pop rushing build issue. I believe that responsibility falls squarely on the sholders of the Domestic Leader and you have the correct view that it should be a pollable event. The Domestic Leader should have the correct view of the national needs compared to say a Govenor or another leader. It is unreasonable to ask a mayor or Govenor to put to death their own citizens for the national good. I fully support you here, though I believe the DL should not have the power to unilaterally kill thousands of citizens without a poll.

I disagree with you though that the Cultural Minister is not a major function. Culture is a massive issue in Civ3 and requires a function similar to that of Domestic Leader to manage it. The Cultural Minister should most definately have the power to override govenors, otherwise his position is actually less powerful than a govenor. DoF had indicated that he doesn't have the Civ3 game when writing the rules, so I think this key fact (the power of culture) is not totally impressed upon him.

I believe that the Domestic, Military, and Cultural leaders are the three top cabinet positions and one (specifically Domestic Leader) should not be a "super" cabinet position.

Overall, I think the cabinet is functioning effectively in trying times. I am fully convinced (and your post here Eyrei is further proof) that the members have the best interests of the entire populace at heart. I wish the chats could be held outside of my workday so I could attend other than on weekends (can't use chat at work due to firewall, but you all can PM me during game times)

Just my view, also not intended to offend. I agree it is best to clarify these issues early on.

Bill
Trade Leader

 

[donsig]

Is 10 good or bad?

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
I disagree with you though that the Cultural Minister is not a major function. Culture is a massive issue in Civ3 and requires a function similar to that of Domestic Leader to manage it. The Cultural Minister should most definately have the power to override govenors, otherwise his position is actually less powerful than a govenor. DoF had indicated that he doesn't have the Civ3 game when writing the rules, so I think this key fact (the power of culture) is not totally impressed upon him.

It is not my view that the cultural department should not have power. However, that power should be used to override governors only when they are not addressing cultural issues as well as they should. Requiring approval from the cultural leader to build a cultural improvement is a completely different story. Should governors be required to gain the approval of the domestic leader before they can build anything else? The job of the cultural department is to lobby for and attempt to enforce a strong cultural background, not to give approval for the construction of cultural buildings. Culture is only one function of these buildings, and in some cases, the secondary function. This approval should be assumed, as it strengthens the culture of the nation, just as approval for a governor to build a marketplace should be assumed from the domestic leader, as it strengthens the economy. In addition, the domestic leader must have the support of the cabinet to override a governor's decision, and the same should go for the cultural leader. Am I right in assuming that the happiness of the citizens falls within the realm of the domestic leader and the governors? Many of these buildings are happiness improvements, with culture being an equal, or possibly a secondary function. Many are science improvements, as well. As these buildings cross over several departments, I think the governors should not need any sort of approval to build one, unless a cabinet vote vetoes the action.

Note: I am not arguing this for my own benefit, as I am not even sure I will run for Domestic Leader again, as it can be very time consuming, and even stressful.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

I think performance polls shld only be done after the elections, when your term is up and you're no longer in office. If every leader and governor begin to put up such polls now, it'll be..... messy.

 

[donsig]

Let us please clear this up. Supposedly, the domestic leader is allowed to do certain things without the permission of the rest of the populace and cabinet.

Yes, he can do those things outlined in the constitution. Pop-rushing is not even mentioned in the constitution (to my knowledge) so there is room for argument there. Either way it should be put into the constitution.

Shouldn't the respective cabinet members advice be taken in their areas of expertise? Shouldn't a governor, for example, who wants to build a barracks in his or her city get the backing of military department? What if the military department's opinion was that a barracks wasn't needed right then? Should the governor take that opinion into account? Should the military department be able to veto the governor's choice to make a barracks? Not so far-fetched an idea if the military needed units right away.

 

[Falcon02]

Should the governor take that opinion into account? Should the military department be able to veto the governor's choice to make a barracks? Not so far-fetched an idea if the military needed units right away.

Good point, however Culture is a relatively limited deptment. Their main intrest is building improvements that produce culture. Or building cities to produce more culture. By vetoing an improvement in the culture dept. you really can't get any other pro-culture thing for a city to build, except maybe a settler. And even that case didn't apply to Pherris.

Donsig, I just want to make sure you know, I have no bad feelings towards you, I just disagree with your feelings that Eyrei overstepped his powers. And, I can get pretty passionate when I feel I'm right.

 

[donsig]

Donsig, I just want to make sure you know, I have no bad feelings towards you, I just disagree with your feelings that Eyrei overstepped his powers. And, I can get pretty passionate when I feel I'm right.

I never thought for a moment that you - or anyone else - would harbor bad feelings. I certainly don't.

I can't resist constitutional arguments - I was a poly sci major! My main reason for engaging in this debate is the hope that eventually we will come up with a system that that helps streamline the turn chat sessions so that we can get more actaul turns processed. One session took 3 hours to get one turn comlpete and that was due directly to the COC as outlined in the constitution. Much time is taken up in the turn chat deciding what to build next in a city. That should already be planned out beforehand. If we're to play 10 turns and we know a city will comlpete something in 5 turns then what it is to build next should be known by all. Only if something unexpected happens in those first 5 turns should there be a question about what to build.

The same can be said for our military campaigns. We should not be deciding during turn chat what our objectives are. A plan should be in place so the president can implement it. Turn chat time is to deal with unexpected things that affect the plan.

BTW: Falcon02 has presented just such a plan for the upcoming American campaign. It is general in scope but does give the president an idea of how to proceed - just what is needed. The question is: has this plan been ratified or will the whole thing be rehashed during the next turn chat?

Good as the plan is there is room for more planning. Consider this. We have six immortals headed for Philly, one headed for the American horses and one in Pherris that will (I hope) head towards Fox Nest. It will not take ten turns to pillage the horse road. What should that one immortal do next? How many more immortals and spearmen will be built in those ten turns and what should be done with them? I think this should all be planned out before turn chat.

I'm not suggesting that General Charis and Falcon02 (what is your rank anyway? you need a rank) are not doing a good enough job. I am suggesting that they need to 'hire' some help. Some people to gather information - such as the projected number of new spearmen. This info is given to the General then he can say to Grey Fox - "Hey, Mr. President you'll have 6 new spearmen during the next ten turns. Here's what I think you should do with them." That wording could probably be improved but I hope you all get the right picture. Finding people for some specific jobs may get people more interested in the game as a whole.

 

[Cyc]

you're right donsig. problem is you can't collect reliable information like that in this game. every city starts to build one improvement or unit and 3 moves later gets switched to something else. then just before another improvements (or unit's) shield limit is made it is switched to 'that' and "hey, we just built 'that'." i made a comment about that during the chat when we had decided to stick to the original plan as far as what one city was building. i was surprised. These building orders are constantly being changed during each chat session and it's too hard to keep up with everyone of them, especially when we play for 3 hours and the phone rings or whatever. Unless it is mandatory to build according to the wishes or mandates of the forum posts, no one will be able to reliably collect info. Because information is only valuble when it's stable, and these building orders are not stable.

i would also like to state that although this discussion has merit in that the constitution should be revamped, that any reference to me that i've read recently is totally off-base. i find it hard to believe how someone can use mis-direction so easily in a thread and walk away unscathed. I did not want to veto any library. the whole issue was the manner in which the so-called poll had been set up just before the chat so that when eyrei did what he wanted, he had a poll to back him up. (at the time he wanted to kill those citizens, i think the poll had 9 votes). If you had read the prior thread, eyrei and i had discussed the worth of slowing down the production level of the city (building immortals, i believe)for the amount of time it needed to recoop. please people, get your facts right. research what eyrei says before you jump on his bandwagon.

 

[donsig]

Yes, many changes during turn chat and that does slow things down.

This game appeals to me because it stops for a couple days and I can look around it and not 'do' anything other than get information and try to determine what will happen in the next ten or twenty rounds. When I play my own games I never do that - I just play, stop, play more later. By gathering some of the info that I have so far I've been learning things that I hope will improve my own play.