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the domination of space race victories...

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by minger, Nov 9, 2005.

  1. minger

    minger Warlord

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    Hey guys

    Dunno if anyone else can relate to this. I'm kind of a "purist" in that I don't like tweaking the options of my games, so I am loathe to turn off the space race victory..

    But now I'm beginning to want to. Is it just me or does all my games feel like space race games? Once someone builds the apollo program, I feel like my entire empire shuts down to build the spaceship parts. I had a really awesome late-game war going on (granted, I probably would NOT have achieved conquest or domination victory in time) which I had to end in order to win the space race.

    Does anyone else think the space race begins too early or is too easy to achieve? How could they rebalance this?

    Another thing is, I wish they allowed us to push the "LAUNCH" button -- not only for dramatic effect, but sometimes I don't want to win by space race, but I want to have it ready to launch just in case someone decides to try building a SS.
     
  2. Maximo

    Maximo Chieftain

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    I don't think turning off Space Race victories should confict with your purist ideals. The game is designed to allow you to turn it off. My first few games seemed to short due to Time Victory constraints, so now I turn it off - that way my game doesn't end just because it's 2050 AD. The developers put the option to turn off certain victories into the game to allow you to customize it to your own play style. Turning off the Space Race victory option is no more cheating than turning off the wonder movies. It's an option for you to adjust to your liking. I could see a purist not wanting to modify the code (cheat) but this isn't cheating.

    I love your idea of the Launch button though. Maybe one of the future mods will include that!
     
  3. Volstag

    Volstag Chairman of the Bored

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    In some ways I agree with you. Mostly because the space race is the only way the computer can realistically win. I've never seem them come close to a cultural victory, I can almost always prevent them from winning diplomatically, conquest and domination are probably the least likely, since the AI in Civ IV rarely declares war, and when they do they rarely gain territory.

    I do totally agree that building the space ship shouldn't end the game... it should give you the option of "launching" for the win.

    I guess you could look at it as a challenge to win, by whatever victory condition you desire, before the space-race even begins.
     
  4. Mujadaddy

    Mujadaddy Geheim Grammar Polizei

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    Yeah,after having ALL the games I've finished end in AI Spacerace victories, I'm of the opinion that completing the ship (remember when you had to receive confirmation from Alpha Centauri that they made it? :D ) should only give the first civ to do it some huge huge amount of points so that you have to take them over in order to beat them, score-wise...

    Does anyone know how many points you receive for finishing the Ship?

    I never thought of turning off the TIME victory, though :goodjob:
     
  5. yoshi74

    yoshi74 Tourist from Mars

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    Score is mainly given for population/landmass and the time you won (the earlier the better).

    Pretty rediculus system i say. Even difficulty has no big impact. My conquest victory on a tiny map at warlord gave 28k points, while my diplo win at prince on a standard map is only 11k worth. Its makes no sense to pursue score since it reflects the trouble to get them not at least :(
     
  6. SmartMuffin

    SmartMuffin Chieftain

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    I actually think that Diplomatic Victory is the greatest offender and most worthy of being turned off. Dating back to AC, I've always hated how easy it was to achieve. Unless you play on a small map with few rivals, it pretty much renders domination and conquer victories obsolete.

    Why bother finishing off all of your enemies when you can just elect yourself winner of the game twenty turns earlier?
     
  7. Mujadaddy

    Mujadaddy Geheim Grammar Polizei

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    :goodjob: In MOO2, I would always Abstain, even though I had the biggest block of votes :lol:
     
  8. warpstorm

    warpstorm Yumbo? Yumbo!

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    I agree. The space race definitely dominates the tone of the late game.
     
  9. SmartMuffin

    SmartMuffin Chieftain

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    Playing AC as Lal was a joke. It was just a matter of teching up enough to allow the Senate to convene. Then you had a "Win Game Now" button you could hit whenever you wanted.
     
  10. John Lenin

    John Lenin Chieftain

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    Yep, I miss the launch button too - and I miss the delay after launch of Civ2, where your ship still had to travel for X amount of turns and there were often tense battles as the Ai threw everything at your capital to try and finish you off before your ship reached AC.

    In Civ4, you finish the last portion of the ship and it's a bit of an anti-climax. Box pops up straightaway saying 'You have won a space race victory!', and that's it.
     
  11. 777

    777 King

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    I kind of hoped that in Civ 4 there would be again Civ 2 like space race (building and whole competition itself). It was way more better than in Civ 3 or now in Civ 4.

    It allowed you freely customize your ship as big or as fast as you wanted and it really take time to get to AC and there was even changes getting there. I mean it was a genious idea, I wonder why they ripped it off. Sure it made one victory way easier and more simple but still it was 100000 ways more better than now days system.

    I think its very irritating and stupid when you get your piece together you win the game. I hope that there would even be time 'till it gets to Alpha Centauri and you would have that time to destroy opponent or sabotage space ship controls with spy. Hey pretty good idea isn't it? :)

    EDIT: John_Lenin said allready pretty much everything what I think of.
     
  12. Ravinhood

    Ravinhood Warlord

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    The Space Race Victory is the easiest victory condition to aquire. It's also highly doubtful the AI will win a Domination or Conquest Victory either. But, it can win a Cultural or Timed or Diplomatic Victory (using max civs, I realize some people play the kiddie sized games with 7 civs or less on smaller maps and outcomes may change in the players favor the SMALLER they go in difficulty as well as the difficulty level itself), so these are the only ones I use.

    The Space Race Victory has been around since day one of CIV and it's time to see the AI and the player win by other means than the easiest one. On higher difficulties the Timed Victory for the Player is practically impossible due to the AI getting such a head start on techs and of course the advantages it gets as well as difficulties go up. CIV IV already shows winning a timed victory is going to be the hardest of them all on the higher 2 or 3 difficulties on large maps with large amounts of civs.

    So, if you're one of the one whinning for challenge, I suggest you step up to the plate and win some other way besides First to Spaceship. Play a HUGE PANGEA EPIC game with 14+ Civs and try to win a Diplomatic or Timed or Culture Victory. :) Then come back and complain when you found them too easy to do. ;)
     
  13. 777

    777 King

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    I think he/she didn't mean to whine about challenge, more that they kind of spoiled one way to achieve victory. Which I think is quite true.
     
  14. butlerj1982

    butlerj1982 Chieftain

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    Mansa Munsa won a diplomatic victory against me on Noble in my most recent game. It was annoying, but fair.

    To echo the earlier poster, turning off Space Race is designed into the game. We all have games that we like to play; i like to pangea with space race and time victory shut off and "random personalities" engaged. Everyone is different.

    -John
     
  15. Shillen

    Shillen Deity

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    Yeah I think the AI is in too much of a rush to build their spaceship at the end of the game. They never even try to achieve other victories in my games. I've never even had them build the UN. Always the spaceship.

    I think the main problem, though, is that you can't prevent them from building it like you could in civ3. They can still build it even if they don't have aluminum. Aluminum just speeds it up. I liked it better when you could take their only aluminum source and they couldn't finish their ship without getting another source.
     
  16. QiZhe

    QiZhe Warlord

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    When SDK comes out you can all mod it in.
     
  17. Shillen

    Shillen Deity

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    I'm against modding. I like to know I'm playing the same game as everyone else is. If you start modding then you can't really even compare your games to other people's.
     
  18. jameson

    jameson Emperor

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    I agree, the space race seems to go by too fast. There also doesn't seem to be a way to stop an AI (unless capturing the AI capital destroyes their spaceship, but I haven't tried that out yet), you can only slow them down by cutting off resources.

    Of course, I just lost a Prince-level culture attempt to a Tokugawa diplomatic victory :rolleyes: (just go and try and appease both the Inca, Russians and Aztecs while too geographically isolated to spread your religion to them). But it does seem you need to win before it comes to a space race.

    Of course you can turn it off, but that would be to miss the point; the game simply has to have a way in which the AI can beat you short of annihilating you outright, and space fits the bill in the best way since any decent AI empire can challenge you there. They don't need to have been lucky enough to qualify for diplomatic victory or have the right traits for a culture win there. So IMO too the space race needs some tweaking.
     
  19. bigphesta

    bigphesta Chieftain

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    I turn space race off but play a 18 civ game on a "Duel" size map. most games end up in a cultural victory or if AI is set to aggressive, a game where in the end there are 4-6 of the 18 fighting it out in a war for the win as by 2000 they've 'eaten up' the other cultures via war or a culture domination of that city.

    Its fun playing where you've got just 1 city - and if you're LUCKY two cities - early on (although that has its downfall since you're not putting all your culture bonuses into one city - if you want them both to survive) and if you lose that city you're done.

    If you've never done this, give it a try. 18 civs on tiny continents with space race and time wins turned off

    Mucho funo
     
  20. Efexeye

    Efexeye Silly Donkey

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    Is it really necessary to make fun of people who play smaller maps so that the game doesn't bog down their system?
     

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