The Doviello Unique Mechanic

25Hour

Some sort of lemur
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Mar 14, 2008
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Alternate Title: Encouraging The Doviello's War On Everything

So I really like the Doviello flavor-wise. I mean, they're basically a spartan group of Man's Men, a people who survived the Age of Ice by beating the everliving hell out of all that screwed with them in the frozen tundra. When everyone else was holing up in caves trying to stave off cabin fever, the Doviello just toughed it out in the wild, emerging from the Age of Ice with a minor case of frostbite and a terminal case of kicking your ass.

Which is why it bugs me that they're so weak in the late game. I mean, don't get me wrong-- I get that as it stands now, the Doviello are meant to be the Rushing Civ. But that doesn't appeal to most players, and I think I kinda get why: because in Fall from Heaven, winning the game by means of a rush mean forgoing the use of 90% of the really interesting and awesome mechanics in the game. Disciple units? Nope. Magic? Oh, hell no. Armageddon counter? Don't make me laugh. So that's where I'm coming from with this potential Unique Mechanic, to hopefully make the Doviello competitive in the late game, but not overpower them early on when they're already good enough. So here it is:

First, give the Doviello leaders the "Resourceful" trait, which gives all their units the "Scavenger I" promotion-- basically Bounty Hunter, but for 5 gold instead of 2 for each combat. But then, have Scavenger 1 unlock a line of promotions down the engineering tech path, as follows:

Scavenger II (requires Scavenger I, Construction (possibly Mathematics))
Grants +10% strength, +8 gold per combat.
Scavenger III (requires Scavenger II, Engineering)
Grants +10% strength, +13 gold per combat, +1 experience per combat

(It might be the number of gold per combat is too high or low, and I'll concede the numbers may need tweaking; the intent is to make the benefit equal to the opportunity cost of both the tech research and forgone promotions. It's the general idea I like.)

The way I see it, the other civs all have a choice between guns and butter-- military might, or economic strength. This would give the Doviello that choice too, but in their own style: the beakers used researching the Engineering line of techs would mean forgoing the metalworking line to some extent, resulting in a loss of brute military power, but an increase in the rewards from warfare. Which is thematic as a power vs. econ decision, because you don't play the Doviello if you want to be a peaceful builder chillin' with your cottages.

I also like this idea because it means going down the tech path leading to the Doviello's hero unit, which doesn't see much play in a lot of my Doviello games due to the generally peaceful nature of rest of the Engineering line.
 
nice idea. the War Machine should really be moved to the end of the metal line imho, since Machinery is kinda as un-Doviello as it gets :D
 
Heres an alternative idea for building the War Machine. Move it to Engineering and give it a very low hammer cost but a few extra requirements before you can build it.

Take the XP gained from combat used to generate Great Generals in BTS and split it into 3 categories with their own meters: wheelz, *POW* and Spiky Bits. wheelz xp comes from defeating chariots, catapults, golems, anything a little bit mechanical. *POW* is just a generic term for anything explosive or magical - so gunpowder units, Arcane units Disciple units, Heroes and similar. Spiky Bits would probably be larger than the other two meters and would come from everything else.

Filling the meters enables the War Machine to be built.
 
[to_xp]Gekko;7724755 said:
nice idea. the War Machine should really be moved to the end of the metal line imho, since Machinery is kinda as un-Doviello as it gets :D

But that's exactly the point of it. Have you read it's civilopedia entry?

The guy who made it is as un-doviello as they come. He read books. He interrogated prisoners, he scavenged parts to build it.

Anyways, sort of related, I think any two random doviello units should be able to have a duel. which would almost certainly result in the death of the weaker one, and the stronger one would gain experience.
 
yeah, I know about that guy. can't remember his name right now though. umh... Dentaro! that's his name. nice fella. still, having to research Machinery as the Doviello feels weird, due to it being really unfitting to a savage civ, and it being a very lategame tech and Doviello being pretty bad at researching techs :(
 
Maybe have him be their hero, unlocked at construction or something...
And then he upgrades to War Machine at 100xp. The tricky part is that he doesn't have the Hero promotion before that, so he has to gain that xp on the field (gathering parts ;) )
That way the War Machine is hard to get, but it doesn't require the Doviello to be a high-tech civ. It doesn't really make sense for the entire Civilization to need to understand machinery for the War Machine to appear, anyway...

That would be cool mechanic :D

Edit: Maybe he should get back to 0 xp when he upgrades, so the War Machine isn't too overpowered. I don't know if it should have the Hero promotion after that...
 
Maybe have him be their hero, unlocked at construction or something...
And then he upgrades to War Machine at 100xp. The tricky part is that he doesn't have the Hero promotion before that, so he has to gain that xp on the field (gathering parts ;) )
That way the War Machine is hard to get, but it doesn't require the Doviello to be a high-tech civ. It doesn't really make sense for the entire Civilization to need to understand machinery for the War Machine to appear, anyway...

That would be cool mechanic :D

Edit: Maybe he should get back to 0 xp when he upgrades, so the War Machine isn't too overpowered. I don't know if it should have the Hero promotion after that...
This is an awesome idea.

But The 100 xp mark seems a bit arbitrary. Maybe it would be better for him to have to kill x number of units. Possibly some units from different races, different types, etc.
 
I'm not sure I like winning in combat granting large amounts of gold, it's not really giving the Doviello a late game other than by offsetting their research penalty. A better way of making them relevant late game would be:

I think any two random doviello units should be able to have a duel. which would almost certainly result in the death of the weaker one, and the stronger one would gain experience.

This is pretty awesome. It's like building XP, which fits quite nicely given (in my experience) the Doviello often run out of interesting things to build.

How about all Doviello units (possibly by means of a "Duel" promotion) gain the ability to duel a random friendly unit on their tile. Combat is worked out as normal (though not animated): the winner gains +x XP (x=2? x=half loser XP?) and the loser dies. This could be limited to one duel per turn, but as you always lose a unit and the winner often loses health, I don't think it's too bad letting a unit fight as much as it wants.
 
I guess we could make an exception when he's created by the AI, and let it be parked in their capital with the Hero promotion :p

The 100 xp mark is indeed arbitrary, but it's also the most simple yet challenging one I could think of...
 
I had a suggestion for a doviello only ability called Mark of the wolf, which would make the caster able to be attacked by another Doviello unit. I have no idea how to make it work though, perhaps by a reverse hidden nationality?
 
Scavenger II (requires Scavenger I, Construction (possibly Mathematics))
Grants +10% strength, +8 gold per combat.
Scavenger III (requires Scavenger II, Engineering)
Grants +10% strength, +13 gold per combat, +1 experience per combat

WAAAY too much gold. Even the +2 gold per combat from Bounty Hunter can effectively negate the commerce penalties incurred during the conquering of an enemy's land. +13 per combat would rapidly lead to an unstoppable war chest.

The Doviello, like most barb civs, rely on early, cheap and powerful units to seize a large amount of land to make up for their various penalties. Once entrenched, they are a powerful force in the hands of the AI and human players alike due to their unique upgrade technique. If they are not competitive in the late game, it is due to mishandling, not due to their power curve.

In this, they are also similar to many other civs which require proper circumstances to be late game threats. Ever seen land-locked Lanun? Funniest game I ever played.

On the subject of the War Machine: to repeat what others have mentioned, read the lore. You're already taking them down a tech path that isn't entirely "natural" for them. There's no need to vastly complicate the process by creating another hero unit, keeping the hero alive for 100 turns, and then transforming it into the best hero unit in the game. KISS.
 
While its true they don't have any tangible weaknesses as the game drags on, they do get relatively weaker as other civs pick up their speed and get to their unique features...
 
I wouldn't mind a Doviello-only promotion with bounty hunter as a prerequisite ("Bounty Hunter II" ?), which would give 3 additional gold per fight, for a total of 5.
This is, after all, their way of life: the wolf comes and takes what he needs. He doesn't bother with sitting around thinking about how. :D
(and that distinguishes them further from the orcs)

On the subject of the War Machine: to repeat what others have mentioned, read the lore. You're already taking them down a tech path that isn't entirely "natural" for them. There's no need to vastly complicate the process by creating another hero unit, keeping the hero alive for 100 turns, and then transforming it into the best hero unit in the game. KISS.

Actually the whole point of my idea is that you're not taking them down an unnatural tech path. As per the lore, the guy builds his machine but the tribe still has no understanding whatsoever of this weird tech. The Hero mechanic was an alternative, more Doviello-ish way to make it hard to get the War Machine.

Also, I considered that this "Hero" would not get the Hero promotion, so it could take any number of turns, really :rolleyes:
(see my post above for how the AI could maybe be treated differently)
 
WAAAY too much gold. Even the +2 gold per combat from Bounty Hunter can effectively negate the commerce penalties incurred during the conquering of an enemy's land. +13 per combat would rapidly lead to an unstoppable war chest.

The Doviello, like most barb civs, rely on early, cheap and powerful units to seize a large amount of land to make up for their various penalties. Once entrenched, they are a powerful force in the hands of the AI and human players alike due to their unique upgrade technique.

Oh, I won't argue that it'd be quite powerful. However, keep in mind a few things:
1) Getting these promotions would mean forgoing more powerful combat promotions. (Perhaps the valor-like bonus for Scavenger III would be a bit too much, granted.)
2) Getting these promotions would require going down the Engineering tech path, which is an ungodly expense for the Doviello and would severely diminish their army's effectiveness.
3) When you ask if it's too powerful, I'd suggest comparing it to the Clan (+100% unit production), the elves (+1 food/hammers per tile), and the Sheiam/Balseraphs (Ungodly summons/Eater of Dreams win condition.) Remember that all of the civ's unique mechanics are meant to be overpowered, in some sense.
 
If you're 'supposed' to be rushing around smashing everyone then why are you wasting time killing off each other? I think you'd be better off getting your xp from fallen enemies than from other Doviello.

As for the gold for kills, I agree that the suggested amounts need to be toned down. If you can keep your research slider at 100% and still have a massive army (because it pays for itself), but your opponents have to turn theirs down to pay for a massive army to defend against you, then who really has the research penalty? More than +1 gold / kill is too much, unless a promotion is being spent on it. Remember that we're talking about every unit getting gold for every kill...that can add up to huge amounts quickly. Don't forget that you're probably also getting gold from pillaging.

I'd like to see Scavenger give +1 gold / kill and the ability to scavenge from fallen foes. For example, if you kill a unit with iron weapons then you pick up the iron weapons and use them (gaining the appropriate promotion). If you kill a mounted unit then you hop on their mounts, gaining the mounted promotion (granting +1 movement), and so on. That way if you end up fighting superior foes (but have superior numbers) then your survivors will be on more of a level field, which might help delay the point at which being out-teched will guarantee your defeat.

In addition, I'd like to see them able to get upgrades from killing animals. A spider could yield a poisoned weapon; a bear could yield courage, maybe also winterborn from a polar bear; and so on. This would allow (some of) your army to pick up some upgrades as they march to the attack, which will be a little compensation for the attrition the animals cause.
 
As for the gold for kills, I agree that the suggested amounts need to be toned down. If you can keep your research slider at 100% and still have a massive army (because it pays for itself), but your opponents have to turn theirs down to pay for a massive army to defend against you, then who really has the research penalty? More than +1 gold / kill is too much, unless a promotion is being spent on it.

I have to admit, I've always found the Bounty Hunter promotion quite lackluster. Basically, you're making a trade of a 20% combat bonus for 2 gold each time you kill something. To put this in perspective, a unit engages the enemy every three or four turns you're at war-- call it maybe 1/2 a gold per turn, on average, gained from Bounty Hunter while at war (likely less than that, due to time spent healing between combats). To put this in perspective, a town gets you 5-6 gold per turn with no risk of losing it-- more than that with city buildings. Add this to the fact that BH-type promotions significantly increase the chance of losing your unit (due to the loss of a combat promo), and it really starts to look like a fairly poor option compared to virtually anything else you could do to save money. My intent here was to avoid this with the Scavenger promos, making war a main driver of the Doviello economy and not just marginally cost-effective (remember the civs they're competing against, and the tech/opportunity cost of these promos).

Yeah, the suggested amounts were probably too high-- but not radically so. Perhaps 3/5/9 gold per Scavenger promotion?
 
Gold for combat is one way to do it. I also had an alternate idea to help the Doviello in the late-game. What if they had a unique building which gives them +1 commerce for every war they are currently in? This would encourage the Doviello player to declare war early and often, with everyone he meets--to the point where the player would eventually have to think "I really need more commerce; can I afford a war on yet another front?" As long as the Doviello player doesn't finish his enemies off, but just keeps bleeding them forever, he could amass quite a huge research base by the end of the game.
 
Hmm, I like the concept there but 1 commerce per war (even per city) is nowhere near enough, maybe adjust it to like 1 commerce per 3 pop or something? Even then, I think between foreign trade routes and the security of peace unnecessary war would still be really expensive. You know what would be nice, though, maybe a 10-20% science and possibly gold increase while at war, it would certainly pay for the cost of one war at a time and do at least something to make up for their economic woes. Just brainstorming here, I don't know if what I said could even be implemented.

I do think that significant gold for combat is not a good idea, though. It would not be nearly enough to pay off your expenses fighting against a strong opponent, while against stacks of warriors and scouts it would be absurdly strong. It's really to hard to keep something like that balanced within itself.
 
In addition, I'd like to see them able to get upgrades from killing animals. A spider could yield a poisoned weapon; a bear could yield courage, maybe also winterborn from a polar bear; and so on. This would allow (some of) your army to pick up some upgrades as they march to the attack, which will be a little compensation for the attrition the animals cause.

This I *really* like, and might even be enough for me to play Doviello, (I consider them sometimes :p)

Something like a spirit animal promotion. Maybe they can build a building that allows them to build warriors of a spirit animal line... or maybe even they can set down and build a "den" like bears, (that has a 50% defens3e bonus?) that sometimes spawns new warriors of the spirit line. It would be double dope if they had corresponding graphics, and it would make fighting ljosalfar and their summoned tigers even more gratifying.

I really am in love with these ideas already. :rolleyes: :goodjob:
 
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