The Drill promotions tree (First Strikes)

[DrJambo]

I noticed there's a difference in the type of First Strikes that can be awarded through the Drill promotion tree. There's First Strike Chance and First Strike Change, one given a chance the other providing definite first strikes.

What exactly does the First Strike Chance infer to a unit? Is it just a % chance of getting a First Strike?

To me the first strikes seem the weakest of the unit benefits, never really doing much to my units and seemingly always weaker than simply going up the Combat promotion tree.

Any thoughts?

 

[Jamesds]

Yeah, that's how it occurs to me too. I would use them only once I have already jumped up the combat promotion tree.

And yes, the First Strike Chance means it isn't certain - that's why units can have, say, 1-3 first strikes. The first one is certain, but there is a chance it could have an extra two. I don't know how much damage these first strikes do to the unit though. The only benefit is that it removes some health from the unit before it gets a chance to defend itself.

 

[Ralgar]

First strike chance is a 50% possibility. It all is explained in the "combat explained" article in the war academy. But more or less its true: strength promotion is better.

 

[DrJambo]

I'm thinking a bit of modding to make them more appealing as a promotion.

Drill I: 1 First Strike (was 1 First Strike Chance)
Drill II: 1 First Strike, 1 First Strike Chance (was 1 First Strike), 20% collateral protection
Drill III: 1 First Strike, 2 First Strike Chances (was 2 First Strike Chances), 20 % collateral protection
Drill IV: 2 First Strikes, 1 First Strike Chance (was 2 First Strikes), 20 % collateral protection

 

[Roland Johansen]

The drill promotions are good when used all the way up to Drill III and Drill IV. The first ones are weak. And then they are by far the most useful on units that are a lot stronger than their opposition. Whether that is modern armour that is mopping up heavily bombed enemy units or drill longbowmen hiding behind a castle wall doesn't matter. In both cases, the first strikes are likely to kill the enemy outright before it gets a chance to fight or at least weaken the enemy to such an extent that it is almost sure to lose after the first strike damage has been applied. That makes such units useful as they can win fight after fight without healing time.

In most cases other promotions are better.

 

[bazola]

Another thing about first strikes is that it's a combat round where the enemys attack doesn't damage you. So they could roll a lot of damage in that first strike round, but only your damage counts. My opinion is that if you upgrade riflemen down the drill line they can be as powerful as city raider units of the same rank.

 

[axident]

The drill promotions are good when used all the way up to Drill III and Drill IV. The first ones are weak. And then they are by far the most useful on units that are a lot stronger than their opposition. Whether that is modern armour that is mopping up heavily bombed enemy units or drill longbowmen hiding behind a castle wall doesn't matter. In both cases, the first strikes are likely to kill the enemy outright before it gets a chance to fight or at least weaken the enemy to such an extent that it is almost sure to lose after the first strike damage has been applied. That makes such units useful as they can win fight after fight without healing time.

In most cases other promotions are better.

Amen. 10chars

 

[DrJambo]

I suppose it's easier to see their potential uses for defending units, protecting from collateral and the fact many some defending units have first strikes already. However, it just seems to make more sense to always go Combat.

 

[Common Sensei]

So it's pretty much good to have the other promotions in your conquering army and have a subset of units promoted through the Drill promotions to act as a mop up unit to clean up after siege unit collateral damage?

 

[Roland Johansen]

So it's pretty much good to have the other promotions in your conquering army and have a subset of units promoted through the Drill promotions to act as a mop up unit to clean up after siege unit collateral damage?

That could work, but it works exceptionally well once you have bombers because they can do damage without a lot of risk and weaken a unit to such an extent that it can be destroyed by first strikes alone. However the interception rules for planes have changed and maybe bombing isn't the most cost-efficient way to weaken and destroy an enemy anymore.

Note that the Drill III and Drill IV are especially interesting. Not only because they add a greater number of first strikes than Drill I and II, but also because the jump from 4 to 8 first strikes is more interesting than the jump from 0 to 4. At a certain number of first strikes, it just becomes unrealistic that a (wounded) unit still has hit points left after the first strikes have done their damage.

For example (simplified, but it makes it more understandable): If a first strike unit had a 50% chance to do 20 damage per first strike, then a wounded unit at 50 hitpoints could very well be alive after 3 first strikes. All 3 of them would have to be successful to kill the unit before the real fighting starts (chance 12.5%). However if the unit has 6 first strikes, then the change that 3 of them are successes is pretty likely (chance 65.6%).

If the unit is stronger than the unit it attacks, then it will do more than 20 damage per first strike and the chance to hit for each first strike goes up so you have a bigger chance to kill it before it purely with first strikes.

For instance, if a unit with 6 first strikes has a 70% chance to do 25 damage per first strike, then the chance that a wounded unit at 50 hitpoints survives the first strikes is only 1.1%. So the chance to kill it with first strikes would be 98.9%.

The above is just a simplification of the chance to survive the first strikes, but it does show the strength of a high number of first strikes and the strength of being a bit stronger than the enemy.

 

[axident]

Drill's power is seriously amplified with Blitz, but Drill on anything else is weaker than Combat upgrades (see War Academy as to why). Which is why I only Drill tanks. And yes I can vouch for bombers being cost-effective in dealing enough collateral to targets that your swarm of blitzing Drillers can mop up with almost no casualties. Just build some of your own fighters to keep enemy fighters busy. If you have a decent number of bombers, fighters, and Blitz/Drill tanks, you should virtually never lose to an AI unless they outnumber you VERY heavily.

 

[gettingfat]

Drill series work better than combat units when the strength of a unit is significantly higher than its opponent unit. In this case the drill promoted unit will receive much less injuries. They make perfect clean up units. Use the combat/CR units to get the tough ones, use the drill promoted units to take care of the softies. Your stack will move faster (also protected from the annoying artillery units as well).

 

[Infantry#14]

so if 2 units have 1 first strike chance, which of the below scenario happens?

Scenario 1
Both negates each other's first strike

Scenario 2
Side A has FS, but Side B doesnt (lucky vs unlucky)

Scenario 3
Side A doesnt have FS, but Side B does (unlucky vs lucky)

 

[axident]

so if 2 units have 1 first strike chance, which of the below scenario happens?

Scenario 1
Both negates each other's first strike

Scenario 2
Side A has FS, but Side B doesnt (lucky vs unlucky)

Scenario 3
Side A doesnt have FS, but Side B does (unlucky vs lucky)

I think they negate. So if one side has 2 FS and the other has 1, they get treated as if one side has 1 FS and the other 0. I haven't been to the War Acad in a while so if you want you can verify this, but IIRC that's how it works.

 

[SickCycle]

I dunno.. Oromo's and there 4-7 first strikes out of the gate (with a little planning) seem pretty devastating.

 

[axident]

I dunno.. Oromo's and there 4-7 first strikes out of the gate (with a little planning) seem pretty devastating.

I'd rather have Combat IV than Drill IV on any non-blitzer. A Combat IV will usually beat an equal-powered Drill IV unit (see war academy stats page).

 

[SickCycle]

To each there own I was using Oromos the other night and my single stack took out about 6 cities without stopping to heal once and without a medic..

I haven't read the article your talking about though I may check it out, but I'd think that where a Combat IV would be stronger and actually might take the Drill IV (again, I don't know the article you refer to) I'd think in a regular battle the Combat IV would take damage where as with 4-7 free first strikes I've noticed usually the Oromo kills it's target without even taking damage of any kind which allows you to continue marching through the enemy without ever stopping.

I find the speed that you can continue your march extremely useful strategicly it leaves them with little to no time to bring troops home whip/draft and such.

I'll check out the article tho

 

[SickCycle]

Also, how often does the AI have Combat IV troops heh

 

[Shades]

I'd rather have Combat IV than Drill IV on any non-blitzer. A Combat IV will usually beat an equal-powered Drill IV unit (see war academy stats page).

Actually, in the case of the Oromos, it is more a question of whether Drills III and IV are more powerfull then Combat I and II since you get Drills I and II for free.

 

[Quagga]

Actually, in the case of the Oromos, it is more a question of whether Drills III and IV are more powerfull then Combat I and II since you get Drills I and II for free.

That's an important point and one that also comes up for gunpowder units when you're Protective. Do you use your first promotion for Drill II, CG II or Combat I? I rarely do the third, otherwise circumstantially choosing between the first two. (Prior to BTS, this wasn't the choice. You had to go with CG II or Combat I.)

Now let's assume you chose Drill II. You go into battle and earn another promo. Do you choose Drill III with collateral damage protection or lackluster Combat I? You guessed that I'm choosing Drill III, didn't you?

I'd continue with Drill until I ran out. After that, my goal would be to get March, probably via Combat I (finally), Medic I, then March. Or if I'm already at Infantry, I may hold off going for March, getting it with the Mech Inf upgrade instead. If so, I might decide to promote with Pinch or Combat II instead of Medic I.