Ok, trash the idea, I'm going to go back to my original idea. This time, I will make it work, I am going to invest my efforts in crafting a good story instead of taking shortcuts. (Original as in going with the original plan before I posted up the idea, just to clarify).

I apologize for my actions because I sort of feel frustrated again with trying to make the plot better or more interesting.

It's not about who's-who, it's about crafting a story people actually want to read. The fact that you're even saying you'll dumb it down to the lowest rung pretty much proves you've taken none of my counsel seriously. You won't make it work, because you're too lazy to make it work: I've told you a million times good storytelling is an investment, and once again you're leaping for the nearest shortcut instead of actually trying.
Again, I was frustrated when I saw Choxorn's post saying that he's still lost with the plot. I guess that got the better of me. I will make it work to the best of my abilities, I will take the counsel seriously from now on. I still need help in regards to properly storytell.

You want to know why Kan' ditched you? You want to know why tailless blocked you? They couldn't put up with this god-damned carousel any longer, and it really is a testament to masochism that I've held out to this point. I don't admit mistakes easily, but I'm finally ready to accept that you can't change, you won't change, and I was a fool for thinking I could actually help.
Thor, that really hurts :(.
But I want to prove to you that I can and will change.

That said, I hitched almost every consequential idea I had for XII to this plot, so you will understand when I carry it forward in your stead. DYOS is more than any single contributor, and I can still see the value in your ideas, especially when you can't. If XII really was to be CivGeneral's retirement, then he deserves a proper send-off, not a middle-finger cop-out, and I sincerely hope that I will do you proud.
I'm ready to give a proper send off. I guess I still have some attachment issues with my character.

Good luck in your future endeavours, but do not expect advice from me in future, as you are clearly intent on squandering the it
Then who is going to critique my plots? :(
 
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Again, I was frustrated when I saw Choxorn's post saying that he's still lost with the plot. I guess that got the better of me. I will make it work to the best of my abilities, I will take the counsel seriously from now on. I still need help in regards to properly storytell.

I'm not lost because your plot is too complex, I'm lost because, as Thor said, you're being kind of lazy with it and not bothering to make it something that I actually want to care about (well, and the slow update pace, too, I guess).

I guess complexity might be part of it, too. I think I mentioned a long time ago that you have a tendency to make too many characters I don't care about, because they're just some dude from a video game I haven't played, or an OC of yours that only has like one or two traits you've put any thought into. But it's not the complexity itself that makes me lose you- I'm perfectly okay following complex plots where there's a bunch of stuff going on- it's that the complexity has no depth, so there's a bunch of stuff going on and most of it isn't really all that interesting. Making complex plots is fine, and I'd encourage it, but make sure the added complexity is good and serves a purpose to the story, and you're not just being complex for its own sake.

I could generally sum up my criticism of you as being that most of the time you're just doing this entirely for yourself and not caring about being interesting or entertaining to others. And there's nothing wrong with that- if all you want to do is write about whatever you're fancying and entertain yourself, that's just fine, and more power to you.

But that being said, if you're going to do that, you'll need to accept that people won't always like what you've made, and that some people might not want to work with you if they don't think you care about making things that they're interested in, too, or making things that would make for a good story.
 
Just to be clear, I'm not going to rip people's heads off because I genuinely want to improve my comicing and storytelling (and change my reputation around so that I'm not "The guy who angerly gets triggered all the time", I've literally broken the carousel not to long ago)

I'm not lost because your plot is too complex, I'm lost because, as Thor said, you're being kind of lazy with it and not bothering to make it something that I actually want to care about (well, and the slow update pace, too, I guess).
It's sort of frustrating when in the previous few comics, Thor has been helping in the background, editing and proofreading scripts I send his way. I hate to be that guy that says it, but I'm not a mind reader (nor would I ever be) and can't gauge what you or what anyone would care about.

I honestly don't know how to get out of the lazy rut when I am making a comic on my own since I'm essentially taking a gamble when I'm the only one that's actively contributing. It's taking me back to the not-so-great-times in DYOS history in the 3rd (or was it 4th) incarnation when most everyone lost interest by the 2nd or 3rd page (This was at a time DYOS was seated in OT). How can I make it interesting? How can I have you care about my plotline/arc (I honestly don't know how to phrase it so that is not in a passive-aggressive tone)? What made my early comics different from the ones in the present that made them interesting and entertaining?

I think I mentioned a long time ago that you have a tendency to make too many characters I don't care about, because they're just some dude from a video game I haven't played, or an OC of yours that only has like one or two traits you've put any thought into.
This is where I am at a loss, How would I be able to change that around to have you care about the characters that I use? Lately, I've mainly been just reducing myself to the whole "show, don't tell" mantra with characters.

But it's not the complexity itself that makes me lose you- I'm perfectly okay following complex plots where there's a bunch of stuff going on- it's that the complexity has no depth, so there's a bunch of stuff going on and most of it isn't really all that interesting. Making complex plots is fine, and I'd encourage it, but make sure the added complexity is good and serves a purpose to the story, and you're not just being complex for its own sake.
This is where I am at a loss, How would I add any sort of depth, including plots, characters, etc? I really don't want to offer up too many spoilers at this point in time. Since right now, I'm mainly trying to get back in track with the plot (or that's related to the main PIPPA-SOPA plot) and the repercussions of the act to forge a Fascist Coruscant as a reaction against PIPPA-SOPA (and precived grievances dating from PwP of the Political Powerplays). I honestly do have plans that are related to the main players (I'm not gonna reveal any spoilers at this time), but it feels disheartening when at this level there's hardly any sort of interest.

I could generally sum up my criticism of you as being that most of the time you're just doing this entirely for yourself and not caring about being interesting or entertaining to others. And there's nothing wrong with that- if all you want to do is write about whatever you're fancying and entertain yourself, that's just fine, and more power to you.
I've been mainly operating on this principle: "Ultimately, I really make these comics to please myself. The rest of you are just along for the ride. If you try to please other people, then you'll never be happy with what you've done.", translated into my language would be "Screw the haters". By default, taking up Stylesrj's School of Thought of just making comics to not let Kan and TK win, like what he did by not letting Azzaman and Abbedon win (I know it's not the right mindset to have, but it's sort of my default mode and going through the motions ATM). I'm very much at a loss on how to be interesting and entertaining towards others, especially after years of stagnation during the depression era.

But that being said, if you're going to do that, you'll need to accept that people won't always like what you've made, and that some people might not want to work with you if they don't think you care about making things that they're interested in, too, or making things that would make for a good story.
That I cannot accept, which is why I want to change up the dynamics in my comicing to make them more interesting and entertaining towards others and encourage people to work with me. At this point, I'm in Stylesrj's shoes when he got to the point and said "Ok guys, How can I make my comics less sucky?".

If I may ask, is it my ultra-possessiveness that's partly discouraging others from working with me?

I don't know which is harder; storywriting or trying to main one of the harder classes in Overwatch.
 
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Just to be clear, I'm not going to rip people's heads off because I genuinely want to improve my comicing and storytelling (and change my reputation around so that I'm not "The guy who angerly gets triggered all the time")

Good, I hope you can change and improve and not rip people's heads off, you're a lot more pleasant to be around when you're willing to listen to what others have to say.

It's sort of frustrating when in the previous few comics, Thor has been helping in the background, editing and proofreading scripts I send his way. I hate to be that guy that says it, but I'm not a mind reader (nor would I ever be) and can't gauge what you or what anyone would care about.

I honestly don't know how to get out of the lazy rut when I am making a comic on my own since I'm essentially taking a gamble when I'm the only one that's actively contributing. It's taking me back to the not-so-great-times in DYOS history in the 3rd (or was it 4th) incarnation when most everyone lost interest by the 2nd or 3rd page (This was at a time DYOS was seated in OT). How can I make it interesting? How can I have you care about my plotline/arc (I honestly don't know how to phrase it so that is not in a passive-aggressive tone)? What made my early comics different from the ones in the present that made them interesting and entertaining?

I don't know if I can answer all of those questions, but I can try.

Earlier on, around DYOS 10, everything felt a bit more collaborative, like we were all working together towards a common goal and trying to make the best story we could, but it felt like that all just fell apart.

I'm not sure if you can make me care on your own, maybe it will take several of us working together as a team to make something we can all care about, and it's good that you were trying to get Thorvald to help you with things like that.

This is where I am at a loss, How would I be able to change that around to have you care about the characters that I use? Lately, I've mainly been just reducing myself to the whole "show, don't tell" mantra with characters.

This is where I am at a loss, How would I add any sort of depth, including plots, characters, etc? I really don't want to offer up too many spoilers at this point in time.

Well, like I already said, a lot of your characters feel too one-dimensional, like there's only one or two interesting things about them.

You can have one-dimensional background characters, especially if they don't even have names and don't seem like they're supposed to be particularly important- God knows I have plenty of background characters I've put barely any effort into, but if you're going to keep them around and make them important, make sure you've put some thought into what the character is actually like. You've gotten better at this- it's not like DYOS XI where you had a million minor characters and each one just filled some niche you needed filled and never did anything else- but just, in general, make sure your characters have some depth to them and more than one or two notable traits, so that they seem like actual people.

Take Morrigan for instance- she's supposed to be one of your main characters, and literally all I know about her is "She's a succubus and she tries to sleep with anything that moves, especially CivGeneral," and that's a bit too shallow to really interest me.

I've been mainly operating on this principle: "Ultimately, I really make these comics to please myself. The rest of you are just along for the ride. If you try to please other people, then you'll never be happy with what you've done.", translated into my language would be "Screw the haters". By default, taking up Stylesrj's School of Thought of just making comics to not let Kan and TK win, like what he did by not letting Azzaman and Abbedon win (I know it's not the right mindset to have, but it's sort of my default mode and going through the motions ATM). I'm very much at a loss on how to be interesting and entertaining towards others, especially after years of stagnation during the depression era.

Win what? This isn't a game, if all you're doing is making comics to say "screw you" then sure, I guess they may not be "winning," but you're not winning, either, you're just doing something to spite other people, and that's not really healthy. Are you really pleasing yourself, or just trying to piss off your critics?

That I cannot accept, which is why I want to change up the dynamics in my comicing to make them more interesting and entertaining towards others and encourage people to work with me. At this point, I'm in Stylesrj's shoes when he got to the point and said "Ok guys, How can I make my comics less sucky?".

You can change things all you want, but you'll never make everyone happy. No matter what you do, someone somewhere is going to not like it, and that's just how life is.

If I may ask, is it my ultra-possessiveness that's partly discouraging others from working with me?

Yeah, probably, you have a tendency to make things revolve around you in these collaborations, and you can get angry and rip people's heads off when things aren't going the way you want.
 
Good, I hope you can change and improve and not rip people's heads off, you're a lot more pleasant to be around when you're willing to listen to what others have to say.
I'm going to be very brutally honest here, I miss the old reasonable pre-depression CG.

I'm not sure if you can make me care on your own, maybe it will take several of us working together as a team to make something we can all care about
This is what makes me feel like I'm largely going through the motions when I don't see any sort of activity since I feel like the pressure is on me to foster an environment that would encourage that sort of collaborative when I'm the only active one so far (the Stylesbros dropped out silently).

and it's good that you were trying to get Thorvald to help you with things like that.
Though now, I kind of feel I've blown my chance on that. After that last outburst.

I'm sort of back to looking at the advice L_J gave to Stylesrj on how not to make his comics sucky.

Take Morrigan for instance- she's supposed to be one of your main characters, and literally all I know about her is "She's a succubus and she tries to sleep with anything that moves, especially CivGeneral," and that's a bit too shallow to really interest me.
But then the question comes, is she doing it for the LOLZ or in a metalevel as karma for the string of broken hearts Civ Valentine has made in his wacky adventures? Originally the "She's a succubus and tries to sleep anything that moves, especially CivGeneral" has been built up between Thor and I as a form of Trolling that Morri is doing, even adding a bit of airheadness here and there (e.g. irritating Civ Valentine). I'm not 100% sure on how to improve upon her since she has evolved into a sort of foil for Civ Valentine.

I know in the future I want to improve upon both imported characters and OCs, One of which is Grand Admiral Thrawn and he's the one that I especially want to take care with him using the canon source material as a base to build off of for the DYOS Thrawn (Personality, Skills, and Traits). I've already told Thorvald in private that I want to avoid the same mistake I did with the dime-a-dozen antagonist generals in the past and have him as a legitimate threatening yet interesting character. My goal for Grand Admiral Thrawn is to have him be interesting for people who haven't played any games, novels, and shows that he's featured in. That's sort of the biggest challenge for me in importing this character.

The other two characters I plan on introducing is Connie and Sombra as the main characters on the Resistance Side. I know Connie hasn't been properly introduced as a character in her own right and it's too early to judge her at this point. Same for Sombra (All I can offer is that she is a hacker). It's roughly too early to judge them since neither of them have any sort of screentime as main characters. Connie, I'm mainly pooling in my own play style in Fallout New Vegas and a more optimistic and friendly version of Civ Valentine. Sombra would be given the same treatment Grand Admiral Thrawn would be given (Only relying on the source material for personality, skills, and traits).

Win what? This isn't a game, if all you're doing is making comics to say "screw you" then sure, I guess they may not be "winning," but you're not winning, either, you're just doing something to spite other people, and that's not really healthy. Are you really pleasing yourself, or just trying to piss off your critics?
Idealy, to tick off the critics. Though in hindsight would be counterproductive since I still wish to win them back in the future.

Yeah, probably, you have a tendency to make things revolve around you in these collaborations, and you can get angry and rip people's heads off when things aren't going the way you want.
At this point, it's sort of inevitable since I'm the only active contributor (cept an occasional once in a blue moon Comic from Thor). In what ways can I rectify this so it doesn't happen again in the future (The make things revolve around me in the collaborations).
 
On the very last point, when people want to collaborate and push their plots, accept it. If you watch Doctor Who, some of the best episodes don't really feature the Doctor at all, or he appears in what is at best a cameo.

Accept that Coruscant doesn't matter, Civ don't matter, no character or place or time or action or plot you or anyone else does or comes up with matters. What matters is what these things ellicit, what they make people feel. You have to think about that before you write, or you'll probably never write something worth reading.
 
Joan said it more post-modernist-ly than I would have, but the principle is the same: it's not the who that's important, it what that who does, and what that represents. Grade-school literature was always about "who did what, when and where", whereas in university it was all about "why". It wasn't until a first-year course that I finally got poetry, in the sense that rhyme and rhythm and metre actually have a meaning beyond "It has a meaning, test tomorrow"; we did a lot of works I'd previously done in school, and I came away with a completely different understanding of what they meant.

I've been mainly operating on this principle: "Ultimately, I really make these comics to please myself. The rest of you are just along for the ride. If you try to please other people, then you'll never be happy with what you've done."
I feel you're misreading what Danger Mouse meant. He's not saying "screw the haters", because like chox said, if you're just working to spite people then in a sense you're still beholden to them while not actually enjoying what you do. Yes, in the end, we all want to write what we like, and if that appeals to other people then all the better—but don't turn that into an excuse to shut out criticism or refuse to improve. There's a reason Andrew Dobson is a living meme.

This is what makes me feel like I'm largely going through the motions
well I mean one of the reasons I ghostwrite your scripts is to sneak my own idea through in lieu of an actual comic :mischief:

But then the question comes, is she doing it for the LOLZ or in a metalevel as karma for the string of broken hearts Civ Valentine has made in his wacky adventures? Originally the "She's a succubus and tries to sleep anything that moves, especially CivGeneral" has been built up between Thor and I as a form of Trolling that Morri is doing, even adding a bit of airheadness here and there (e.g. irritating Civ Valentine). I'm not 100% sure on how to improve upon her since she has evolved into a sort of foil for Civ Valentine.
See, I felt you used that scene too early, 'cuz I'd intended it to be a sort of Signal Flip, and from there on out you realize she's actually unnervingly cunning, but que sera, sera.

Writing a long arc is like piloting a steam locomotive. You can't just hop in and go like with a car: an engine like the Flying Scotsman takes several hours to warm up before it's even physically mobile, and then bringing it up to speed takes another stretch of time. But once you've got that momentum, keeping going is easy. What drives me insane about this see-sawing is you make maybe one or two comics, and then decide since you haven't hit 80KPH you're Doin It Rong and dash back to a point of zero inertia—the irony is, it's your own impatience that's slowing you down. All characters, and all plots, start at zero inertia. The ones we like, the ones we consider the Main Characters, are those that have been afforded the time to build up momentum. To cite the guy you love to hate, Toyoda was introduced early on in X with neither name nor a face, only really began to hit stride toward the thread's end, and is now essentially the fulcrum of the Gem arc after the Gem itself. And it's not because he's omnipresent—his actual screen time is, once I think about it, surprisingly small—it's because he acts as the link between multiple characters and storylines, and that came about because he's been in the running for so long.

I think I've mentioned Gregory Bateson to you before; his whole philosophy is that 'things' in of themselves have no meaning, and it's the relationships between things that define our understanding of the world. The best DYOS stories have always come from cross-pollination between contributors, and there's a reason I'm always trying to stitch all the subplots together—Huayna Capac made literally one comic and yet his character is now linking back to TB's story, which in turn has as-yet-unrevealed consequences for POPA–SIPPA; chox actually becomes the main character in the hunt for Toyoda; and tailless used the Gem arc (itself the Mother of All Collabs) as Sebastian's Origin Story through [REDACTED]. Indeed, if I had actually managed Toyoda's introduction as originally intended, without the Gem Arc, before he got tied up in the politics of Part II, he would be a less interesting character. The reason your possessiveness is so problematic to DYOS is that by walling off your setting, your plot, your characters, you've basically created a roadblock—a bright and colourful one, but a roadblock nonetheless. If people don't think they can meaningfully interact with you besides tightly-scripted Crossover Episodes and magical weed cameos, they will ignore you—which I do think is a tragedy because as our private correspondences should prove, Coruscant has a wealth of untapped potential... if you're willing to let other people realize it.

Then who is going to critique my plots? :(
ask Styles lol :mischief:
 
Who's Andrew Dobson and why is he a living meme?
 
Also known as TomPreston, AKA the Blue Bear, who previously posed as a girl named CattyN to post inflation fetish. He hit the mainstream with the autobiographical webcomic "So, You're A Cartoonist?"; he touted himself as a professional but his art style was mediocre at best, most of the writing was self-victimization and/or strawmanning, and he became infamous for attacking and/or blocking anyone that criticized his work, even constructively. (He even filed cease-and-desist against KnowYourMeme.) Nowadays almost everything he does is locked behind a Paytreon wall.

He's one of CurtSibling's favourite targets.
 
On the very last point, when people want to collaborate and push their plots, accept it. If you watch Doctor Who, some of the best episodes don't really feature the Doctor at all, or he appears in what is at best a cameo.

Yeah. Love and Monsters is a classic :p
 
Moons can be replaced. I'm sure CivGeneral would throw in some explanation as to why the moon would reappear if someone decides that Earth needs it for their plot.
"As it turns out, Coruscant replaced the moon with a repainted Death Star so the tides would be restored"
Or "Some giant space moth laid a new egg"
 
Moons can be replaced. I'm sure CivGeneral would throw in some explanation as to why the moon would reappear if someone decides that Earth needs it for their plot.
"As it turns out, Coruscant replaced the moon with a repainted Death Star so the tides would be restored"
Or "Some giant space moth laid a new egg"

Or, the moon has been replaced by the giant gnome head space station that ATE IT :p
 
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Moons can be replaced. I'm sure CivGeneral would throw in some explanation as to why the moon would reappear if someone decides that Earth needs it for their plot.
Don't count on it, I'd be ignored anyway.

"As it turns out, Coruscant replaced the moon with a repainted Death Star so the tides would be restored"
Only if you payed me with tons and tons and tons of gold bullion. I accept American Gold Eagles and Canadian Gold Maple Leafs.
 
You could always pay me in Lucina fanart if you ever want me to make a sprite comic on something :^)

I have to wonder how you have Lucina sprites when to my knowledge the only game she's appeared in was on the 3ds and didn't use sprites :p
 
I have to wonder how you have Lucina sprites when to my knowledge the only game she's appeared in was on the 3ds and didn't use sprites :p

Firstly, there is sprites in Awakening, on the map.

But she did appear in Project X-zone 2 as Nintendo's guest character (along with Chrom), and that's where I've been pulling the Lucina sprites from. I wish I could claim I was dedicated enough to make them myself but... lol
 
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