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The early religions

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Lone Wolf, Feb 8, 2009.

?

So, what do you propose?

  1. Nothing, the current situation is fine

    43 vote(s)
    27.2%
  2. Reduce the spread rate of RoK and FoL

    67 vote(s)
    42.4%
  3. Stop RoK aligment changing

    21 vote(s)
    13.3%
  4. Other

    27 vote(s)
    17.1%
  1. Homunculus

    Homunculus Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Reduce passive spreading, though maybe have settlers start off with a religion (maybe only if from a state religion city?) - it's rather silly that my 100% Order Bannor found their new cities without Order (hey guys, we've been fighting off the forces of evil for centuries now... Can I have some agnostic volunteers for that new outpost we're planning, please?)

    And reduce chances of active spreading based on alignment.

    Ie. say 25% (extra? I'm not sure on the percentages for spreading) odds of failure if spreading a good or evil religion to a neutral, or a neutral religion to good or evil. and 50% odds of failure spreading good to evil or viceversa.

    So, corrupting the Elohim would still be possible, but you'd have to actively work for it, and still be at a disadvantage against anyone else trying to spread religions to them.
     
  2. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    That has the potential to enlarge the early religion dominance problem.

    Well, you may view your new Bannor city as a city formed mostly of local minor peoples.
     
  3. zup

    zup Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2008
    Messages:
    1,238
    I have this nice game, about turn 300 normal speed and the only religion founded so far is Empyrean, by me. Either the AI beelines a religion, or it will never found it because it researches mysticism on turn 500 or something? They don't have economy worth anything. "I need more units!" says Jonas and masses more goblins in one city than I have total military? Meanwhile, I have researched blasting powder and astronomy. (Heh I only quit to make radiant guards never obsolete.)

    Sidenote: I saw a very scary Orthus. Combat 5, heroic strength and defense 2 and woodsman 1. I can kill that guy when I have immortals or something? I am lucky he's on another continent.
     
  4. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    Maybe that's one of the reasons the AI's are so behind in your game...

    Althrough in my games I've seen some AI's doing the tech race really badly with no particular reason, while everyone else does OK.
     
  5. Fenboy

    Fenboy King

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    Nov 6, 2007
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    Ingurland
    I agree with limiting the spread of RoK & FoL. They're supposed to be the religions of the Dwarves and Elves, so other civs adopting them should be a pretty rare event.

    Plus, like Lone Wolf I don't like most of the evil civs adopting RoK and going neutral in every darn game.
     
  6. zup

    zup Emperor

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    Aug 14, 2008
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    I'd like it if there was some kind of treshold, say 50% of your population must live in a city with this religion, or you cannot adopt it. If you want a specific state religion, you have to work for it. No more moments of "Aaah hell terrain is killing me! What's this, a city with Order? Suck on that Agares!" It would take longer for the dwarves to start spreading their oh so glorious religion everywhere. It is not their state religion, so they don't care yet. Perhaps lower the treshold a little if the religion is particularly flavorful for the civ. At most one religion gets a reduced treshold. The AI should be far more reluctant to open borders, with the player and other AIs. For example, if Grigori share open borders with the Clan, bun Balseraphs hate the Clan, Balseraphs do not want open their borders to Grigori, bump up the treshold. Simple.

    Finally, if I want to stay an isolationist xenophobe in my own little corner, I don't want my religion to spread away. Make it only spread along trade routes. No open borders, no religion spread.
     
  7. Honor

    Honor Immortal

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
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    Celo
    An AI or a human player should actually "FEAR" changing their alignment by any means. An evil civ should want to stay evil unless forced to do otherwise at gunpoint. To promote this, alignment change could be made to have some dire consequences - dire enough to make evil civs think twice before adopting RoK, for instance.
     
  8. Gelvan

    Gelvan Prince

    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
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    How about some unhappy faces?

    Surely some Orcs wouldn't be that happy to have an Order religion, even if Jonas likes the idea. Or the Vampire lords who dislike the desciscion of Alexis to worship a god of work (RoK) and start to fund rebels..

    Although I think the problem is passive spreading. Just switch it off. (maybe as a game option, anyone wants to code it? :)) make them be only spreadable with units. make open border a really high value for "thematic appropriate xenophobe" civ's like Shaeim, Dwarfs and Elves.
     
  9. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
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    Location:
    Ahch-To
    Another problem with the early religion spread that hasn't been made yet is the effect that it has on alignment. If FOL is spread, it has little effect, but if the elves aren't in the game then the early religion is often ROK. When spread, it turns evil civs neutral. The epic battle of good and evil becomes kind of a moot point when most of the evil civs in the world become neutral by turn 200.
     
  10. Gelvan

    Gelvan Prince

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    the source of this problem (to many alignment changes) is not the change of the alignment itself but the spread rate which eventually leads to the problem of to many alignment changes..

    Solution to this problem:
    Either No passive spreading
    Or only with trade routes.

    And maybe increase of chances that AI will change it's religion if he has the holy city and his willingness to get one, even if it has already another religion without holy city.
     
  11. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    BTW, for everyone who doesn't know, the passive spread rates are in

    Mods\Fall from Heaven 2\Assets\XML\Gameinfo\CIV4ReligionInfo.xml (the SpreadFactor tag) and the AI parameters are in the

    Mods\Fall from Heaven 2\Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml (ReligionWeightModifiers tags).

    BTW, is it possible for a leader to have positive weights to multiple religions?
     
  12. Methuselah

    Methuselah King

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
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    677
    I'm pretty sure it's possible.
     
  13. Kenjister

    Kenjister Swimmer

    Joined:
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    464
    Location:
    SoCal
    I think reducing the spread rate is the way to go. The last time I checked, FoL and RoK had a 100 spread rate, while OO had 75. On the other hand, the massive religion spread isn't really due to the passive spread rates, but really to the fact that the Dwarves and Elves spam Thanes and Diciples. Maybe the AI could be weighed to dislike those units more, or simply make them more expensive. Combine that with a lower spread rate like the OO has and I think most of the problem would be solved
     
  14. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    There isn't really that much difference between 100 and 75. I've recently limited it to just 5, let's see how it goes. And talking about spread by Thanes and Disciples, maybe the AI leaders should be more reluctant to open borders. Right now most of them open borders at cautious/annoyed.
     
  15. Kenjister

    Kenjister Swimmer

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    Good point. The limited OO spread comes from the lack of a civ that beelines to it...

    Well, since the Elves and Dwarves are supposed to be rather xenophobic, or at least stereotypically are, it would make sense for them to not open borders until pleased.
     
  16. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    Or even until friendly. Amelanchier, Thessa, Kandros and Arturus already don't open borders 'till pleased, but it's easy even for a Good and an Evil civ to be pleased with others in the period of religion spreading. (-4 for aligment counteracted by +4 for peace and +4 for fair trade).

    So I made every Ljosafar, Luchuirp and Khazad leader open borders at Friendly. Let's see them for the xenophobes they truly are. :)

    I also lowered the BaseAttitude these leaders start with. (Beeri and Garrim at +1 instead of +3, Amelanchier at -1 instead of +1 (seems fitting,) Arendel at +1 instead of +2, Thessa, Kandros and Arturus at 0 instead of +1). I also made Amelanchier's favourie civic bonus be +1 maximum (Nationhood is too widespread civic).

    In general, I think that the attitude at which most leaders offer OB is too low, especially for the dark world of Erebus.
     
  17. Verily

    Verily Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    551
    The Luchuirp don't beeline Runes and aren't any more likely to found it than anyone else. Same for the Svartalfar and Leaves. They're not a problem. The Ljosalfar and the Khazad are the problem because they're programmed to beeline their respective religions. Which makes sense from teh AI perspective because both civs are crippled without their state religions. But they need to be prevented from spamming Disciples and Thanes.

    1. Remove passive religion spread. I don't know if this is possible, but, if it is, get rid of it. Or at least get rid of it until the shrine for a religion has been built, which might be more thematic.

    2. Raise the thresholds for adopting a religion. Certain civilizations should be unable to adopt certain religions. The Sidar, Svartalfar and Calabim for Empyrean, the Sheaim for Order, the Bannor and the Elohim for Ashen Veil, the Calabim for Runes, etc. Sabathiel will never follow Agares; Tebryn will never join Junil; Faeryl will never endorse Lugus. It's silly to have that possibility even in the game. Otherwise, alignment-changing religions should have very low weights while all alignment-maintaining religions have high weights.

    As an example, Alexis's religion weights might look like this:

    Order: 0
    Empyrean: -100
    Runes: -100
    Leaves: -50
    Overlords: 50
    Esus: 60
    Veil: 30

    While Einion's religion weights might look like this:

    Order: 10
    Empyrean: 70
    Runes: 40
    Leaves: 30
    Overlords: -40
    Esus: -60
    Veil: -100

    3. Open Borders thresholds should be higher. For everyone, but especially for the isolationists: the Ljosalfar, the Khazad, the Sheaim, the Calabim, the Elohim, the Svartalfar, the Sidar. Key to religion on that list are the Ljosalfar and the Khazad, of course.
     
  18. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    The Luchuirp and Elohim aren't xenophobes. The Ljosalfar as a species somewhat are, but Amelanchier is the only leader of theirs that's really big on that.

    Lorewise there's no "never" when it comes to civs choosing a god to follow, just less likely.
     
  19. Ranos

    Ranos King

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    Location:
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    My biggest problems with the religions on FFH is that they are mostly custom made for one or two civs. You can fit another one or two into a couple of them but they don't fit really well and then the rest are just left out there with no real religion to their name.

    While Empyrean and CoE can kind of take up a lot of the slack, they come later in the tech tree than the more civ specific religions. I would like to see a more neutral religion added that would be something any civ could adopt without making them lose their flavor or alignment.

    Maybe add a religion called God King that is founded with Mysticism. This would better suite the flavor of a number of civs that don't really fit into any of the existing religions. It wouldn't change alignment so you wouldn't have all of the evil civs converting to RoK and losing their evilness.
     
  20. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    The Luchuirp aren't beeliners? Didn't know that.

    True, Arendel and Thessa aren't particulary xenophobic, but I made them xenophobic in regards to OB for gameplay (and they'll trade resources, techs, etc just fine, it's not like I made them Tokugawish. Basically "We have to really trust you to allow you on our lands, but if you want our knowledge or resources - fine, as long as you pay a fair price"). And, as you've said, the Ljos as a species is somewaht xenophobic, so we have some lore justification for it, too.

    I reflected Amelamshier's xenophobia by making him distrustful of foreginers (-1 BaseAttutude).

    I made no changes to the Svarts.
     

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