1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Photobucket has changed its policy concerning hotlinking images and now requires an account with a $399.00 annual fee to allow hotlink. More information is available at: this link.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  6. Dismiss Notice
  7. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

The Early Rush

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by Sisiutil, Sep 19, 2007.

  1. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    The Early Rush:

    A Civilization IV Strategy Guide to Conquering your Nearest Neighbour for Fun and Profit before the BCs become the ADs

    Version 1.4 - January 2nd, 2009
     

    Attached Files:

  2. HolyHandGrenade

    HolyHandGrenade Holy Pin

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    607
    nice writing - gives a good overview of what to do and especially how to get on track AFTER the early rush :)
     
  3. marowaker

    marowaker Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2006
    Messages:
    195
    This is likely to be very useful to me. One thing I noticed is that you mentioned that impi's are bad for chariots(obviously). Holkans are just as bad since they are resourceless and the bts AI knows how to whip them. Brilliant article though
     
  4. Percy

    Percy Cow who laughs

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    556
    Location:
    France
    An Impi can keep up with a Chariot, a Holkan can't.
     
  5. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Peepsville
    hey boss, great guide! up until i got to this part: "Just because you’ve assembled the essential ingredients, it doesn’t mean you’re ready to cook your enemy’s goose" i was really sure it was gonna turn me into a warmonger *giggle*. alas, i shall forever be hopeless at that axe-waving thing, but i'm sure it'll help tons of other folks.

    i did notice that you have the gallic warrior listed as requiring iron. i played as random the other day and ended up as Boudica :rotfl: yeah that's appropriate! they can be built with either copper or iron. page 14 you mention a 25% penalty for attacking across a river. i just woke up, so i may be remembering it wrong, and i'm too lazy to test it, but i thought it was 50%?

    and one teensy tweak to help out interface noobs. on page 23 you say "As of Warlords, once a city is within visible range of your units, you can check the information screen to see if any wonders are located there." i'd spell out exactly how to find it, maybe like "..., you can check the World Wonders list on the Info Screen 'Top 5 Cities/Wonders' page to see if any ... " or something. we all know where that stuff is now, but when i started out i didn't, and it's really important stuff to know! maybe i'd bother to learn to axe-rush if you got three choices instead of just two.
    • install a new governor
    • burn, baybee, burn!
    • hold your darned horses a second, let me inspect the city first
     
  6. Percy

    Percy Cow who laughs

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2005
    Messages:
    556
    Location:
    France
    There should definitely be a way to check the city before. Generally speaking, there should be a way to interact with the game before having to answer to any question asked by the game (because of Random Events, following AIs' demands, etc).
     
  7. nbcman

    nbcman Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Messages:
    896
    On Page 8 the early UUs are listed by Civilization but the Quechua is not in the table. The Quechua is described 1st on page 9. But this is a great writeup.
     
  8. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    I'll fix that and the other corrections and clarifications noted above when I next revise the article. Thanks!

    EDIT: Waitaminit, I just checked--the Quechuas are in that table. Have another look.
     
  9. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    True, but on the other hand, you can't prevent the Mayas from building the equivalent of Spearmen by pillaging their metal source. :sad:
     
  10. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    21,810
    Location:
    Liverpool, home of Everton FC
    I out-Oracle KMadCandy!

    The penalty for attacking across a river is 25%. The penalty for attacking from a boat is 50%.

    I think the penalty for attacking from a boat and across a river (when the boat is in a bay, attacking a tile diagonal across a river) might be 75%, but don't quote me on that. I do know that amphibious cancels both the penalties.
     
  11. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Peepsville
    haha but i'm apparently notorious enough for being an Oracle substitute that people claim victory for out-Oracling me! therefore, i claim the true Victory!

    sorry S but you know me, i had to *giggle* which caused a hijack...
     
  12. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2007
    Messages:
    21,810
    Location:
    Liverpool, home of Everton FC
    Just watch out if you swap your pets for children in case you produce Great Prophets after 50 turns, they may use lightbulbs to discover new technologies. I'll stop hijacking now.
     
  13. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,663
    Initial feedback

    1) Needs pictures
    2) Needs math - especially in regards to forces, and combat odds
    3) Lists of civ starting techs needs better presentation - probably a color coded table
    4) Needs a discussion of which Leaders make good targets - including discussion of personality implications.
    5) Needs a clearer discussion of other circumstances that might dissuade the player from an early rush (terrain, local resources favoring other tech paths, blah blah blah)
    6) Implications of eliminating a rival versus capturing his capital - tech trading, neighbors - etc.
    7) Research after the military needs are secured. Turn it off? What about Alphabet?
     
  14. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,993
    Location:
    Peepsville
    and maybe a mention of (perhaps) rushing to slow down someone, then (or perhaps entirely) holding off until Feudalism so you can take him as a vassal? could be just another of my rationalizations for avoiding the "early" part. *giggle*

    ParaS: my hypothetical children would be really dang scary. if you knew hubby you'd be realllllllllllly scared at the possibilities :crazyeye:
     
  15. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    1) I'll go through it again with an eye towards some screencaps. Good idea.
    2) You KNOW I'm not fond of the math. And I'm not really intending this to be a guide for people playing at that level. Frankly, I'm not even sure it's necessary. I know that my melee units will have a tough time against Hannibal's Bowmen, especially if they're on a hill. Do I really need to know that their strength in that situation is 2.25 rather than, say, 3.5 versus a regular Archer? Bowmen and Protective units are tougher, so you need to bring more attackers or not bother. And I did try to deal with roughly how many units you'll need in each situation.
    3) Good idea. Maybe Green for those with the best starting techs, yellow for the intermediate ones, red for the worst combos?
    4) Another good idea--a table of the civs discussing the pros and cons of rushing them, likelihood of success, and so on.
    5) Yes, a "When NOT to rush" section would be good.
    6) Well, it's really about eliminating your rival versus crippling him, isn't it? You're right, there should be a discussion of the pros and cons of each.
    7) Hmmm, I see your point here, though again, I really just focused on getting the rush up and running. After it there are a number of tech paths, strategies, and victory options you can pursue, so it gets harder to dictate which path his best. I see your point about Alphabet, though, since you could potentially extort techs before/instead of eliminating your enemy.
     
  16. slobberinbear

    slobberinbear Ursine Skald

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2006
    Messages:
    1,657
    Location:
    Foraging in your trashcan
    I especially agree with number 5. I have found in my games certain factors (geography, usually) that made the early rush practically impossible or clearly suboptimal.

    Your articles are growing .. a regular canon of works ... a Civilopedia Sisiutilia, if you will. Bravo! :thumbsup:
     
  17. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,663
    Get over it. Or subcontract it out.

    I had overlooked the chart on page 17. However, having looked at it, my comment stands - I don't believe those numbers, beyond "they feel about right, don't they". Also, the notion of fractional cultural defense is kind of cute, given that you are rushing without disposapults.

    Your expository example ("if, for example, you're facing 2 Archers....") should really match your chart. Some of this is simply inconsistent terminology:it's not 8 attackers, it's 8 units - 2 are defenders. That's kind of important because the costs of defenders are not the same as those of attackers. Also, I don't agree that the stack matters as much as you imply - eyes on the prize.

    Two numbers that I think should be listed, though: one is the culture clock - when are the cultural jump points for your target cities? Part of the question of "can I rush?" is "can I get the job done before the defense climbs another 20%?" This sort of information allows the player to count backwards, to figure out whether they can actually deliver the right number of hammers at the deadline.

    Also, it wouldn't hurt to include a estimate hammer cost to take various targets. Reminding your readers that a 5:1 attack ratio means roughly 350 hammers may spare them some disappointment.
     
  18. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    6,899
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    I have a hard time thinking that way and writing about it because it's not at all the way I think or play the game. Perhaps it's not optimal, but I don't count hammers to that extent, let alone turns to cultural expansion increases. Yet I've been able to perform several successful early rushes. So I tend to think that approach to the game is overkill, or at least at is for me, and I'm doing okay on Emperor level lately.

    I freely acknowledge that it can help; you'll probably save yourself an Axeman or two compared to me (perhaps several), or complete the rush a few turns earlier (perhaps several), or abandon one that will be too difficult whereas I might pig-headedly charge ahead. But I don't think the average player, who is my intended audience, needs to know these details in order to have a successful early rush. I myself have never found it necessary, so I didn't include it.

    Your remark about outsourcing these sorts of calculations, however, makes sense. That's certainly happened with other articles I've written, where the thread has been an opportunity for other posters to analyze things to a more minute mathematical level than I'm capable of doing. So feel free, everyone, to do just that. I can't promise I'll include it in the article, but it certainly contributes to the discussion.
     
  19. HolyHandGrenade

    HolyHandGrenade Holy Pin

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2006
    Messages:
    607
    The question here is. Do the majority needs a deep analysis of each factor which influences an early rush or is a guideline enough. From my point of view most players don't count hammers or weight up in detail what are the chances of success. I believe if you extent your article to a technical paper, only the top 5% of the players may follow (and these 5% don't need it). For the rest it may be better to keep it at the level you made it and perhaps extent it with some better tables and some more colors.

    For me as an intermediate player it got some infos which I normally overlook when doing rushes.
     
  20. marowaker

    marowaker Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2006
    Messages:
    195
    If you are taking a city, it doesn't matter what speed they are.
     

Share This Page