The Emperor Masters' Challenge 4 (Warlords v.208)

I finally caught up to progress. Although i am going to be mad that i can't just scroll to the updates. Just as a note to Aelf, you are my god, and a good ammount of my time has been devoted to this thread. I hope i can provide (limited) experience of playing since CivIII. Also, i haven't upgraded to 2.08 yet. Is it good? you said something about a split because of the changes. I will follow this for a long time to come. also, will there be an EMC 5?
 
There are better players in these forums. I'm only winning on Emperor. I haven't tried Immortal. And this game is quite a lucky one.

I'm 100% certain the new patch forces you to be more aggressive in general. Some people, particularly people who enjoy the builder aspects of Civ4, agree. Some people disagree, although I haven't seen a single argument that truly validates their PoV. This is the split that I mentioned. And the people who are all for the patch often use the 'better' AI to argue that the game is better, accusing (though not all of them do this) those who do not like the imbalance of the patch of prefering to play with a dumb AI, with implications that they (the pro-patch people) are thus superior. This, as I see it, is the ugly face of the divide.

Regarding whether there will be EMC 5, I'm fairly certain that there will not be. There might, however, be an Immortal Challenge. I'm pretty fascinated by the Aztec Sacrifical Altar, and I might want to start a challenge that features this UB heavily. Since the game would almost certainly be very war-oriented, I should be able to move one difficulty up.

If that does not happen, I have an idea or two for variations of this 'challenge' games concept that might be interesting. I do need something to spice the game up for myself too ;)

PS: It seems that I'll be busy these few days. I may only be able to post the update on Wednesday. The good news is we aren't far from the end, although whether it will be a good one or a bad one is anyone's guess.
 
I think i may download the patch. I want there to be an immortal challenge. I love the Jaguar, because you can easily get woodsmanII, and thus easily mount an attack on an opposing army, as well as ambush them in the middle. and with the Alter, you can pump them out. I say you totally make the challenge an all out war one. Play Monty properly. get a pet dog, take your continent, then branch to the other one. or better yet, play on Pangea, and decimate everyone.
 
aelf regarding the patch and Better AI. It will take time before a balance can be achieved, imagine how much playtesting went on before the actual vanilla version was deemed well balanced, then Warlords and lastly the 2.08 patch. And that balance is decided by Firaxis. And balance with Better AI is decided by Blake and Iustus, with input from the community.

My view on the 2.08 patch regarding the necessity for more war is limited thus far, but on Monarch I've found my self in about 5 out of 6 games to be in a position to win without war. I can't speak for Emperor level as I've only tried and won that a couple of times pre-patch Warlords.

But when it comes to Better AI I definately think a new balance has to be achieved, it only natural, Blake and Iustus are improving the AI's in ways that require the bonuses given to the AI to be reduced. Otherwise the player has to rely more and more on the only aspect it has the advantage, warmongering.
 
Round 10: 1725AD - 1860AD

Some plans were cancelled, so I have time to post this update today. Well, at least part of it.

We ended our last round on a high note. Our GNP was unbeatable and we're #1 in score. We're set to be a major competitor in the space race. But whether we actually win it or not would probably depend heavily on whether we can maintain national security. Will we invade someone to achieve that goal? Or will we rely on a precarious balance of power and stave off conflict until the launch?

I decided not to research Combustion next. Since Nappy and Saladin had it, it would only be a matter of time before everybody else had it, and then we would probably be able to trade for it. Combustion would give us the ability to build tanks and a modern navy, which were vital for our security, but I decided to take the gamble and research Radio first.

True enough, Ramesses soon had that tech too. He was not willing to trade it away yet, though, implying that he was still waiting for more people to have it. Well, better than WFYABTA (Napoleon). It turned out that the wait wasn't long. However, we did not get it from him:



Gandhi remained a viable techer despite being reduced and becoming a vassal. The power of passive resistance at work? "You may take our lands, but you will never take our research power!" :gripe: And for some reason he was no longer Napoleon's worst enemy. Now that place has been taken by Ramesses. As you can see, it becomes important to check diplomatic relations before making any trade at this point in the game. We can't risk any diplomatic demerits from Napoleon.

After Radio was researched, we went for Flight. Now that oil had been hooked up, we were able to build an army and a navy that should be sufficient for defense against attacks from Arabia or the other continent. Having bombers (requires oil, Flight and Radio) in addition to them, however, would reduce casualties and damage to property (through enemy pillaging). I agree with the guys here that if you drop enough bombs on an AI SOD, it might just turn around and go home. And there's little to no risk of WW from that too. Moreover, Flight leads to Rocketry and would therefore make the latter cheaper to research. Hence, it isn't really a deviation. Lastly, Flight isn't a priority for the AI so we might just get good trading opportunities with it.

And then our next GP was born:



It isn't a GE, as we had hoped, but with the Kremlin, a GM on a trade mission is probably good enough. That's a few thousand more gold to help rush buy the Space Elevator.

Anyway, our monopoly on Industrialism was eventually broken. Once HC had it, I went to Gandhi and initiated another trade:



Again, not a very balanced trade for us, but I was hoping he might share it with his master, with whom we cannot trade techs directly without incurring the wrath of Napoleon. That would balance the power on the other continent and help prevent HC from dominating.

After Flight, we went on to research Plastics. Hopefully, we would be able to get it before any of the AIs and build the Three Gorges' Dam. Power (in the energy sense of the word) is important for space race production, and a couple of our core cities were already suffering from unhealthiness. Having a source of power that is not coal plants in cities that don't have rivers would be good.

Before starting on the Dam, though, we had a dress rehearsal on building a wonder:



Well, it was 11 turns in our Ironworks city and the extra happiness would be useful, given our relative lack of happiness resources. It would also translate to more gpt through trades. I sell you records for a fraction of your GNP. Mwahaha!

Then HC got a bit bossy:



If you say democracy is good, I might buy it. Hereditary Rule? What, is this the 18th century? :mischief:

After Plastics, we researched Computers on the way to Robotics.

Our GM soon arrived at the Inca capital and found it to be the most prosperous city on the other continent, in which a trade mission would yield the most amount of gold:



And our next GP was a prophet:



Hmm... we're getting GPs from everywhere. I guess that's not surprising, since we are running specialists everywhere in order to keep growth down in cities that are close to their happiness caps. A shadow of the effect of an SE? Anyway, this prophet was able to establish the Taoist shrine in Pusan at last:



Good thing I had decided to start the Wall Street there. It wasn't the highest in food output and would therefore not be able to run more merchants than a few of our core cities, but I decided to build the Wall Street there just in case we could build the shrine.

By then both Saladin and Napoleon had Industrialism as well. An arms race was probably afoot (we had been building tanks ourselves). To give Napoleon an edge in case war broke out, I made a deal with him:



Saladin still did not have Artillery, which would be a major disadvantage for him in a war. And we could use more gold in our bank for our future Kremlin-backed spending under US. By the way, as you can see, despite our efforts Napoleon was still unhappy about us trading with his worst enemy. Maybe this is because of the centuries-old resource trades with Ramesses. Well, there's only so much we can do without bringing ourselves too much trouble.

Probably still smarting from our rebuff, HC came back with an even more belligerent demand:



This, however, I accepted. At our current science rate (we can't go higher without losing a lot of money every turn), this amount of money could be made in a little less than 4 turns. And at least we didn't have to go through a turn of anarchy, which IMO is more damaging. Better keep HC as happy as we can to prevent trouble.

And we completed another wonder:



Why are we going wonder happy all of a sudden? Well, since we have hit singles, why not enhance its benefits? And more pressure on Saladin's borders could only be good. Plus it would keep this neat wonder out of the AI's hands. It took only 13 turns in Wonsan...

As we're nearing the discovery on Robotics, we got out next GP:



A GE at last! :goodjob: The odds for him were quite high in Wonsan, but we could have had bad luck. Yes, Space Elevator requires Satelites as well, so we can't build it just yet, but now we can be pretty sure that it's ours.

Thus ends the first part of the update. The second part would be posted tomorrow.

[to be continued in the next post...]
 
Hopefully everyone will play nicely and not choose to kill you in the next couple turns.
:lol: Well put.

I'd say you're on your way to a space race win. I think the AI is unlikely to attack at this point, wanting to focus on its own rush to build the space ship. That would be my only advice at this point: ensure that the two closest and most dangerous opponents (Nappy and Sally) are preoccupied going after the spaceship themselves. A couple of skillful tech or resource trades may be in order.

To that end, you may want to try to time building of the parts so most of them complete within a few turns of each other rather than dragging it out. The times I have been attacked while building the space ship have been when the AI can see me closing in on it ahead of them over several turns, giving them time to build up an invasion force. I've never been attacked when I've churned out the majority of parts during a golden age, say.

Speaking of which, is one of those possible? How likely are you to get the GE from Fusion and another great person of a different type anytime soon?
 
Maybe you should develop Pusan for max production and have it build wealth.
 
[continued from previous post]

Once Robotics was discovered, I decided to switch civics:



We could finally make use of the Kremlin and rush buy some mech infantry to boost our power rating. This was particularly important as Saladin declared war on Napoleon at about this time. We might just be pulled into the war, so we might need some good units to fend off Arabian attacks.

We also used US to rush buy the rest of the Three Gorges Dam for 3000+ gold:



What happened to rush buying the Space Elevator? Well, HC actually beat us to Plastics by a few turns, and he's Industrious. With power for our entire empire a guarantee (with the Three Gorges Dam) and a GE in store, I felt confident that we would not need to rush buy a large part of the Space Elevator. Ensuring that we get that power up first seemed to be logical.

After Robotics, we went for Rocketry (which was very cheap by then) and Satelites, with the Space Elevator as our aim.

Anyway, once Saladin declared war on Nappy, I knew Numidian (the city Napoleon captured) would be in danger of being overrun, so I gifted as many riflemen and grenadiers to Napoleon as I could get. Thanks to those, the city barely survived the first turn of the war. The situation was still dire, so I made another outrageous move: I rushed by several mech infantry and gifted them to Napoleon before Saladin's stacks of tanks and cannons could completely overwhelm his defenses. I also gave the French a few tanks. Basically, whatever good units that I could bring there within a turn or two without leaving us defenseless. The gambit worked. Numidian held:



Taste the wrath of Protective mech infantry! Mwahaha! :nuke:

We continued rush buying a few mech infantry here and there. We needed those for ourselves. We spent all the savings we accumulated thus far on those, but I guess it's necessary, just in case.

Having done well with our aid, Napoleon proceeded to ask for more help:



Err... What's the point, dude? Saladin's offensive is finished. But I guess the AI can't think. Anyway, not wanting to enter a long and inconclusive war and have WW slow us down, now that we're entering space race mode, I declined. I would rather have the -1 penalty from Napoleon. He's likely to be too busy with Saladin to jump on us anyway.

Anyway, once we discovered Satelites, the Space Elevator was started in Moscow and our GE went there to hurry it:



So now it's 7 turns to build the Space Elevator (down from 13) :goodjob:

And this is where the round ends. The tech situation:



HC is the most advanced. The others are quite well behind, especially Saladin (and Peter, of course).

The power graph:



Still not great, but it's improving quickly thanks to our shiny new mech infantries, tanks and bombers.

GNP:



Still unbeatable, and getting more so.

The map of our continent:



The map hasn't been redrawn yet. And that's a good thing for us. Nappy and Saladin are still at war, but it's mostly attrition now.

The other continent:



War isn't too likely, despite tensions. I guess they are all busy building space ship parts over there. In fact, HC seems to be doing rather well so far:



Our own Apollo Program is due in 8 turns. What do you say? Is a space victory likely?

We have one GS waiting right now. Should we use him to shave a few turns off Fibre Optics? Kremlin isn't much use anymore anyway, since we probably don't need to rush buy the Space Elevator now (on that note, we may want to switch back to Representation to keep Napoleon on the good side). Or should we save him for a space race GA? I presume we are beelining for Fusion to get the free GE, and we'll probably have another GP by then. It may turn out to be another GE, though.
 

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I apologise for my ignorance, but why was saving Numidian so important? :confused:

It's like Berlin in 1947. It's the most natural target for the AI. Anyway, the total defeat of Saladin there is comparable to Stalingrad. Now the Arabs have totally crippled themselves and are most likely unable to gain any advantage in the war, just as I had hoped.
 
I'd say a Space Race victory is totally possible. Can't look at your production output right now, but magnified by the Space Elevator you should be well back into the race. I don't remember if you built Scotland Yard but you might want to ship over some Spies to sabotage things if needed. The AI usually guards resources, but not 'normal' farms/mines. You get the picture. ;)

And totally keep the GS for a Golden Age. This late in the game they become outrageously powerful compared to lightbulbing. And anyway, I don't think that research speed will be your main problem, rather production.

By the way, excellent job in keeping those two occupied. :) With a bit of luck they'll still be at each other's throats when you finish the Space Ship! :D
 
I think I understand...

You fear Saladin disrupting your space program, so you want to ensure that the French get invaded rather than you. Numidian is the most isolated city, and used to belong to Saladin, and as a result is the most likely target for the Arabs. If it fell, then Saladin might sue for peace with Napoleon, and turn his attentions to you. So you prop up the French defences, saving Numidian and ensuring that if Saladin attacks again it should once again be directed towards France.

Is that right?

ps. I must say that you've played your neighbours off against each other quite superbly. :clap:
 
I think I understand...

You fear Saladin disrupting your space program, so you want to ensure that the French get invaded rather than you. Numidian is the most isolated city, and used to belong to Saladin, and as a result is the most likely target for the Arabs. If it fell, then Saladin might sue for peace with Napoleon, and turn his attentions to you. So you prop up the French defences, saving Numidian and ensuring that if Saladin attacks again it should once again be directed towards France.

Is that right?

ps. I must say that you've played your neighbours off against each other quite superbly.

Not only that, Numidian is the likely starting point of a major incursion by Arab forces, which might lead to Napoleon's defeat and severe weakening. Stopping the invasion where it began ensures that Nappy survives and remains a viable ally and buffer against Saladin.
 
Not only that, Numidian is the likely starting point of a major incursion by Arab forces, which might lead to Napoleon's defeat and severe weakening. Stopping the invasion where it began ensures that Nappy survives and remains a viable ally and buffer against Saladin.

I see. Thanks for explaining. Having read most of your EMCs, I've learned a lot about many aspects of cIV, but your careful attention to the relationships between civs is particularly interesting to me (not least because these things are so hard to explain in more general comments/advice).
 
I really like the diplomacy you've shown in this game. A space win should be fairly straightforward from here. The AI tends to do incompetent things, like research Composites and build the Manhatten Project, rather than focusing on the true goal. I would go for Computers next to get laboratories built while Apollo is finishing. Then Fusion, then Genetics, last Ecology (the smallest terminal peice, so get started on it last).

peace,
lilnev

edit: Oops, I see from the screenshot that you have Computers. Good choice. ;)
 
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