The Emperor Series #01: Sitting Bull

@yanner

Spoiler :


well you can't do anything with pottery before bw. In retrospect I think skipping AH until pottery+bw has some merit (or writing).

with this high food start you will be very quick to high pops and will start limit the pop with workers/settlers, which ironically will very quickly slow down your tech rate.



@abcd

Spoiler :


writing here is very good, but you need TW too.
I got slowed down in early game probably the same way as you did :) after BW I now looked at bpt (7!!) and no TW/pottery/writing... oops! was very painful to dig out.
 
Vransam:

Spoiler :
I often have trouble planning my early tech path. But one way I think of it is that (unless I have a commerce mine) I need to get either writing or pottery within a few techs. In this case writing seemed natural since SB is Philo, and AH is needed for pigs anyway. But I guess maybe I don't see why The Wheel (and/or Pottery) is so necessary?

I mean yeah, trades routes and resources are important (particularly since you have ivory and gold available for happy.) But with so much land available, I was thinking that it could take a back seat to REXing (i.e., Mining -> BW after writing) so long as you have writing to keep the economy from grinding to a halt.
 
ABCDPuppies said:
Vransam:

Spoiler :
I often have trouble planning my early tech path. But one way I think of it is that (unless I have a commerce mine) I need to get either writing or pottery within a few techs. In this case writing seemed natural since SB is Philo, and AH is needed for pigs anyway. But I guess maybe I don't see why The Wheel (and/or Pottery) is so necessary?

I mean yeah, trades routes and resources are important (particularly since you have ivory and gold available for happy.) But with so much land available, I was thinking that it could take a back seat to REXing (i.e., Mining -> BW after writing) so long as you have writing to keep the economy from grinding to a halt.
Click to expand...

Spoiler :

TW for connecting cities and connecting AI after writing (the second one is more important imo, I roaded pericles asap). That early TR commerce is important. Depends how you settle first 2 cities, but I didn't had connection before TW (you could have settle along the river both first cities lowering the need for TW - at least I think you don't need tw when you have culture+river connection)

I wouldn't argue about pottery since I am not strong advocate for cottages usually, but they were useful for me this game.
 
vranasm said:
@yanner

Spoiler :


well you can't do anything with pottery before bw. In retrospect I think skipping AH until pottery+bw has some merit (or writing).

with this high food start you will be very quick to high pops and will start limit the pop with workers/settlers, which ironically will very quickly slow down your tech rate.

Click to expand...

@vranasm

Spoiler :
Yes that's what I meant. I realize that without bw you can't chop and hence can't build cottages, I just wasn't sure what you meant about how you messed up your current tech path.

You are absolutely correct. In my current game, I delayed AH because I started with AGR and FISH and had wheat, clams(2) and pigs in my cap BFC. There was no rush at all for AH.

I see what you mean now. These are careful decisions to be made on Emperor.

BTW, when's your next Let's Play? :)
 
Turn 132. 425 AD.

Spoiler :
Only just built the Great Library - rather slow tech but I have had enough on my hands, expanding that is. I also have 5 or 6 wonders, encouraged by marble and stone :goodjob:

Early on I built stonehenge while doing some research since we were a bit hard up for commerce and necessary techs here. I think that can be a strong play in cases like this where there is a lot of land around and several potential sites but no immediately obvious top pick. Then I settled out at a fairly leisurely pace.

Early cities:

1. Poverty Point: Pericles blocker, decent enough early game with 2 food and 2 hills but not a very strong city long term.

2. MoundCity: Also Peri blocker, and of course ivory and stone! I found the stone and the marble soon after each other and it was clear this would not be a no-wonder game :)

3. Chaco Canyon. Cottages, and useful Pacal part-blocker. The ecomomy was really struggling at this point and no representation libraries were ready yet so I decided to settle somewhere close by with commerce. Might consider moving the capital here later.

4. Mesa Verde: Marble and horse. And completes a block all round. This city had to wait around 20 turns to kick into gear because of all the jungle and I didn't have ironworking.

5. Snaketown: Gold, Maoi statues, GP farm. I found this site early on and left my first exploring warrior over here fogbusting to make sure no barb city besmirched the neighbourhood till I was ready for it.

EmperorBull_AD425_Land.JPG
EmperorBull_AD425_Tech.JPG

Other cities:

Just filling out the land. Looking at the map now it's clear I should really get a quick city or two on the islands to the west for intercontinental trade routes.

 
@ABCDPuppies

writing before pottery is only worth it if you're going to build libs in the turns you save.

I want to have writing early, for sure, but I first want a location set up where I can run specs without cutting into my worker/settler production too much, that usually means I'l want to have 3-4 cities and some 8 workers. I want granaries in the cities I whip, and I want to run specs in the cities with whip angst, because of the synergy of not-growing and running specs. And vice versa, I want to whip the cities that run specs, because 60 hammers from a 2 pop whip are usually better than having the GS 4-5 turns earlier.

So I really only have need of writing after I've taken care of all that. BW, TW, pottery, AH, agri, mining. Maybe archery if I don't have horse/bronze, maybe fishing if I feel that will give more better ROI at that point, although that's rare. Sometimes even myst, if I want borderpops early. Certainly never sailing because that's only helpful for TR.

I don't want my economy to stall, so writing needs to come early, but consider the cost of teching it and then not using it versus a first of second tier tech that gives you immediate returns.
 
Woo! It looks like many people have started this game already. I'd better get started quick. Gotta wrap up my Cathy game soon. ^_^

QUESTION: Any objections for choosing Sal as the next leader?
 
JammerUno said:
@ABCDPuppies

writing before pottery is only worth it if you're going to build libs in the turns you save.

I want to have writing early, for sure, but I first want a location set up where I can run specs without cutting into my worker/settler production too much, that usually means I'l want to have 3-4 cities and some 8 workers. I want granaries in the cities I whip, and I want to run specs in the cities with whip angst, because of the synergy of not-growing and running specs. And vice versa, I want to whip the cities that run specs, because 60 hammers from a 2 pop whip are usually better than having the GS 4-5 turns earlier.

So I really only have need of writing after I've taken care of all that. BW, TW, pottery, AH, agri, mining. Maybe archery if I don't have horse/bronze, maybe fishing if I feel that will give more better ROI at that point, although that's rare. Sometimes even myst, if I want borderpops early. Certainly never sailing because that's only helpful for TR.

I don't want my economy to stall, so writing needs to come early, but consider the cost of teching it and then not using it versus a first of second tier tech that gives you immediate returns.
Click to expand...

All really good points!

I think you're right for sure that in a game like this AH directly to writing would be too early. However, in my experience working in Mining, BW and Myst was considerably too slow. At that point I had 4 cities and the economy was crashed to the point where it took about 16-18 turns just to tech writing. Not the end of the world considering the quality of land I got, and was able to block off, but in another game it could have been lights out for sure...

Per Vransam's suggestion, I think I should have worked The Wheel in for sure before Writing, and Pottery for granaries/whipping might have been a good call after that. Wheel -> Pottery and Mining -> BW would have been even longer than the path I took to Writing, but I guess then at least you'd have cottages to keep the economy going. All good stuff to consider for next time. :)
 
I've played thru 1280AD (no map or AI spoilers if you've met the ones on this continent):

Spoiler :

SIP, worker, warrior, settler, worker, warrior, settler, etc. Tech order was mining> BW> wheel> pottery> hunting> AH> writing. I settled my first city SE to grab the sheep/ jumbos. City 2 went to the double fish/ gold due west. City 3 went to the NE to grab 4xdye/ horses. City 5 went SW to grab the fish. City 6 was a barb city N of the cap with grain(wheat or corn)/ iron/ jumbo. City 7 went on the northern tip to grab the fish, city 8 went east to grab more elephant and block Pacal after out first war.

No religion was founded on the continent until I bulbed Taoism pretty late (540AD I think). Before that, Pacal declared on me. I autorazed a city on what becam my city8 spot later on (near the mountain range/easternost elephant). He took peace after my doggies killed a bunch of his axes/swords. Lots of cottages kept me in the green. After writing I went myst> alpha> math> currency> calendar> masonry> HBR> contruction (I think you can see where this is headed :lol: ). Neither Pacal nor Peri had writing when I got alpha, so I was able to trade for some stuff. I built up a bunch of phants/pults, accompanied by some shock doggies, and attacked Pacal. He had longbows, but that just means you burn thru more cats. I don't think I lost more than 1 or 2 jumbos the entire war. I took all of his main cities, leaving him with 1 crap desert city on the SW tip of the continent in exchange for a pile of techs.

I'm hoping that the fact that all of the early religions were founded overseas will slow down the tech pace over there, otherwise I'm going to be really backwards when I find them. It is encouraging that no ones found us yet. :)

EDIT: I have 12 cities now (I think). I went on strike while attacking Mutal, but switched to caste/built wealth to get me out of danger. Time to whip a bunch of CHs. I've popped 4 GSs without really trying - academy in capital, bulb Philo, 2 on hand - I'll probably bulb paper and edu. Not sure if I should try to take out Peri, but I've got this big army sitting around... :mischief:
 
First attempt at emperor. I've a long way to go yet.

1AD

Spoiler :
It took me three tries to get a position I was satisfied with. Looking at Vranasm's save I think the problem is that I have to accept that sometimes I need to build my cities quite close together. The landmass to the west looks interesting. One of the variables here is whether Pacal founds an early religion. In my first try he did, but this last time the first 5 have gone and still no religion on this continent, so both Ps are still cautious both with me and each other. Also, I couldn't find an acceptable trade for IW, so I'm having to do it myself.
 

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ABCDPuppies said:
All really good points!

I think you're right for sure that in a game like this AH directly to writing would be too early. However, in my experience working in Mining, BW and Myst was considerably too slow. At that point I had 4 cities and the economy was crashed to the point where it took about 16-18 turns just to tech writing. Not the end of the world considering the quality of land I got, and was able to block off, but in another game it could have been lights out for sure...

Per Vransam's suggestion, I think I should have worked The Wheel in for sure before Writing, and Pottery for granaries/whipping might have been a good call after that. Wheel -> Pottery and Mining -> BW would have been even longer than the path I took to Writing, but I guess then at least you'd have cottages to keep the economy going. All good stuff to consider for next time. :)
Click to expand...

pottery here is really tough call. I made cottages around capital and 2nd city, but am not that sure with their overall impact (even though I tried to work all 3 as much as possible with sharing the land between cap and 2nd city), I cottaged the grass around the capital later, but that's non factor for early game.

the TR's were certainly more important and working 2 scientists asap in capital and south fish city were certainly bigger.
With Philo I got to academy for capital pretty quick even if I started to work scientist pretty late.
 
I played this up to 1080 BC:

Spoiler :
I settled in place, after seeing that there really wasn't anything interesting to entice me to move. My research path was first set to Animal Husbandry to be able to work the pigs, as well as the double corn that I can work right away, having Agriculture as starting tech.

It didn't take long until I met 2 neighbors, one to the south and one to the east:

Spoiler :




None of them warmongers by any means, and it seems as the game went on, that I was probably in a continent with just these two. No early religions were founded by any of them, including myself, so it looks like we will be waiting for at least until Code of Laws until religion plays a role on our continent.

Pericles is directly south of me, and Pacal is to my east, past the series of mountain peaks.

After Animal Husbandry, I went Mining --> Bronze Working to clear out the forests because after the pig and the double corn, everything around Cahokia was forests and they needed to be chopped down. Then I went to Mysticism so that I can put Totem Poles in my new cities to get them border pops.

Soon, I found my 2nd city:

Spoiler :


I start with Fishing, and this site seemed like the best place. It could also work the sheep as well. I planned on sealing off Pericles completely so my 3rd city would go east of this one, on a riverside tile.

I did notice a source of stone but it was way too close to Athens, so even though I wanted to grab it badly, I passed.

After Mysticism, I went Wheel --> Pottery route. I thought about beelining straight to Writing at this point, but elected not to. I think I could use the granary and cottages earlier for commerce and whipping.

Meanwhile, 3rd city was settled on top of river side jumbos to complete the seal against Pericles:

Spoiler :


It lacks hills for hammer production, true. But I wanted those 2 extra forests to the south, and I had plans for my 4th city, so I chose this site. This city could share the sheep with the 2nd city if need be, and will make good cottaging site.

On the way to Pottery, Pericles built the Stonehenge in his capital. Also, shortly afterwards, I settled my 4th city:

Spoiler :


Another river side city on top of jumbos. Initially, I wanted to put it closer to Cahokia so that I can at least work more cottage tiles for the capital, not to mention the ability to share the corn if necessary. Then I realized that by putting the city where I did, it would take those grassland tiles just before the peaks and not let them go to waste. Was I wise or not so wise in doing so?

Anyway, I just finished Pottery and selected Writing. Research pace seems slow right now, but I hope to catch up.

Oh by the way, there is another site to our west that would make a really good city site:

Spoiler :


The question is whether to split those food or work them all under one city, including the gold and make it another GP farm site. I suppose Cahokia is as good as any place for a GP farm, so I am leaning more towards splitting the food there.


Anyways, a quick round for me since I just wrapped up my Cathy game.

Feedback appreciated!
 
@gwaja

Spoiler :

settling on the phants gives you an extra hammer, but you lose out on working a 1f3h2c tile. Those are excellent for the early game, if only for the added commerce. As far as I'm concerned, Chaco Canyon should be 1N, to share corn food and work the phants.
 
No time for a real report here (I should be working). I moved my starting warrior 1NW, and spotted no resources to the west. I settled my capital 1E, to get more riverside grassland, a chance at more resources, and late game levee access. I also fogread a hill tile to the south, meaning I knew I'd have a 3-hill capital. My 2nd city was 1N of your Chaco Canyon: a commerce city that can work one of the corns, a few farms, letting me whip out workers early, and then helped to grow the capital's cottages. My 3rd city was 1W of your Mound city: weak production, but a decent number of grassland tiles for cottaging.

I personally think your Poverty Point was a mistake, both resources are outside the 1st ring, you slow built a monument and workboat instead of chopping them, it's working unforested grasslands, and it hasn't contributed any commerce or production to your empire at all! Also, you have tons of forests left to chop as a whole, spend them on workers and settlers.

Mistakes I made:

Spoiler :
I didn't expand and develop fast enough. I also made a mistake of leaving that 2 fish/corn/gold city for too long, and Pericles managed to steal the gold in his 3rd ring from a city on the islands!

There's lots of barbarian pressure on this map, I failed to fogbust the north sufficiently, it delayed a ton of development from emergency whipping dog soldiers instead of workers, and there's a prime Heroic Epic site to the north with iron/corn/5 hills that I again failed to develop properly. It's not like I wasn't spawnbusting, but stupid archers would spawn from the few tiles that weren't covered, and would kill my warriors before I could respond. Oh yeah, and see that little island NW of the western gold? I had something like 3 barb galleys appear and kill my Galleys. For instance, I'd kill 1 galley, I'd move it into the fog, I'd forget and move it back into my borders, then a new one will spawn and murder it within 2 turns or so. All from a 1-tile island!
 
@Gwaja

Spoiler :
Chaco Canyon :eek:

Without sharing cahokia's corn it's going to be a really s-l-o-w grower. In addition to what JammerUno said 1N would secure the dyes as well.

I considered your site for Mound City but I had scouted a square further and saw there was food near the stone so I went over there. Perhaps I was lucky that Pericles didn't put a city in the gap, but I think the AIs only consider tiles that are uncovered by culture when they choose city sites, so from his point of view it was just dull plains. If he had settled there his creative culture would have surely claimed both sheep and elephant back from me.
 
Thanks for your feedback guys!

Spoiler :
I think my mindset was completely off somewhat when I put Chaco Canyon where it is now. I was concerned about grabbing an extra hill as well as not wasting the tiles to the east that I probably didn't consider the sharing of corn possibility. However, I think I can share that corn with my 5th city that I am planning on building north of Chaco Canyon into the jungle. I saw Pacal's settler and archer escort around the area, only to be turned back by a stack of 2 barbarian archers, so I know he has his eyes in this area. I don't want him encroaching on my side of the peaks.

As for Poverty Point, I chopped out the Totem Pole for sure, and I probably did chop out the work boat as well, but my memory is a bit funky. At any rate, I think I like the position long term wise, and it made sealing off Pericles a bit easier. But I admit that settling where I did delayed working the fish, which could have been much earlier.

And finally as for Mound City, I could have tried to grab that stone, but I didn't want to deal with Pericles' annoying culture pressure. It would have been great to grab that for sure, and I wonder if I should have done just that.
 
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