The Entebbe Mission thread

[Kennelly]

Originally posted by ZultanofZex
If I were Israeli, I would probably add the Entebbe mission too! Is there any site for that? I cannot think of ANY special forces operation that beats that.

The myth that Entebbe was a successful Israeli-only anti-terror operation is not true.Of course it was a success,but there was a significant German contribution,most notably in intelligence gathering,but Germans also took part in the action itself.Without GSG 9 and other German help,Entebbe would most likely have failed.So,certainly an Israeli can be proud of it,but he should not forget that it was NOT a brilliant,Israeli operation conducted without any (or much) foreign help.

 

[Kentonio]

Could you provide some evidence of GSG-9 taking part in the operation plz, I have never come across anything that would suggest or even hint at that and would be very interested to see anything you have.


EDIT - typo

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by ZultanofZex
If I were Israeli, I would probably add the Entebbe mission too! Is there any site for that? I cannot think of ANY special forces operation that beats that.

Eli mentioned it. Also, it was a spectacular action, but it was a very small event, nearly insignificant in historical terms compared to Israel's great wars or peace deals.

 

[Eli]

Entebbe wasnt great because of the fighting involved. After all, there were hundreds of Israeli troops and less than 10 terrorists and not many Ugandan troops.

Entebbe was great because it was a military operation conducted by Israel to save Jews on a huge distance.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Eli
Entebbe wasnt great because of the fighting involved. After all, there were hundreds of Israeli troops and less than 10 terrorists and not many Ugandan troops.

Entebbe was great because it was a military operation conducted by Israel to save Jews on a huge distance.

which is a very nice concept but not nearly as important as other operations with similar purposes, mostly immigration operations. Entebbe was a symbol, but I'm not a great believer in symbols.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by Kennelly


The myth that Entebbe was a successful Israeli-only anti-terror operation is not true.Of course it was a success,but there was a significant German contribution,most notably in intelligence gathering,but Germans also took part in the action itself.Without GSG 9 and other German help,Entebbe would most likely have failed.So,certainly an Israeli can be proud of it,but he should not forget that it was NOT a brilliant,Israeli operation conducted without any (or much) foreign help.

Well, where's the proof?

 

[Kennelly]

I don't have a websource for it.It's from the book "The secrets of the BND (the German secret service)" by Udo Ulfkotte,editor of the FAZ and a very respected expert on secret service,Near East,terrorism.So I think he's a credible source.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Kennelly
I don't have a websource for it.It's from the book "The secrets of the BND (the German secret service)" by Udo Ulfkotte,editor of the FAZ and a very respected expert on secret service,Near East,terrorism.So I think he's a credible source.

Such a book seems destined to glorify the BND and tell things from it's own angle rather than telling objective stories. Most of the German help was in getting info on the Germans involved and not so much in gathering intel for the attack itself. And I doubt any major military expert would really say Germany was the differnce between victory and defeat in this case.

 

[Kennelly]

Originally posted by G-Man


Such a book seems destined to glorify the BND and tell things from it's own angle rather than telling objective stories. Most of the German help was in getting info on the Germans involved and not so much in gathering intel for the attack itself. And I doubt any major military expert would really say Germany was the differnce between victory and defeat in this case.

The book does not glorify the BND.It shows a) that the BND is not
only a bunch of cretins,but a very effective and useful secret service b)other agencies like CIA,Mossad,MI6 have also made innumerous mistakes in the past and c)that not only Germany has its dirty secrets,but as well France,USA or Israel but they just have better misinformation capabilities.
The part about the decisive German part is confirmed by Shimon Peres or Ulrich Wegener (founder of GSG9) i.E.
Probably no major Israeli military expert would say so...

 

[G-Man]

You claim that:

Originally posted by Kennelly
The book does not glorify the BND.

Yet what it shows is:

a) that the BND is not
only a bunch of cretins,but a very effective and useful secret service
b)other agencies like CIA,Mossad,MI6 have also made innumerous mistakes in the past and
c)that not only Germany has its dirty secrets,but as well France,USA or Israel but they just have better misinformation capabilities.

Which is just what any glorifying essay would do - praise the BND and throw dirt at the other organizations and countries.

The part about the decisive German part is confirmed by Shimon Peres or Ulrich Wegener (founder of GSG9) i.E.
Probably no major Israeli military expert would say so...

Would you mind quoting that part? Also, check who Peres said it to. He's a diplomat. He tells people what they want to hear and he knows Germans (like all nations) would be happy if they're credited with successes. BTW What kind of aid did Germany provide that was so necessary?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Thread splited out of the Glorious Moments thread to isolate argument...

 

[Simon Darkshade]

What is of interest in regards to the mission is the future political impact that the one Israeli military fatality had.

 

[CruddyLeper]

I have heard some confirmation of German involvement at Entebbe from credible sources that regrettably I cannot name.

As to whether or not they were on the ground, wouldn't such an action have been in breach of the then German convention? I mean armed forces outside of Germany and not part of a NATO operation?

That's a good reason to deny it.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
What is of interest in regards to the mission is the future political impact that the one Israeli military fatality had.

I don't know if that's what brought Netanyahu to politics. Their father had similar ideas as well and was politicaly active about them even before the operation.

 

[Richard III]

Good on XIII for splitting the thread; THAT's good moderating.

Frankly, though, the issue is irrelevant to me. Of course intelligence agencies and governements cooperate on this sort of thing. So what? I'm sort of baffled as to what the fuss is about.

It's like Canada bragging about the Canadarm as though the shuttle wouldn't be a shuttle without a big arm with a maple leaf on it. It's useful, but it's America's shuttle, and without the frickin' Canadarm, they would have found another.

Give Israel all due credit.

Was Mogadishu really a BRITISH op, and not a GSG9 success? No.

Should the US have refused to make "Black Hawk Down" without making a parallel Malaysian version? No.

Was Germany's invasion of Russia ever referred to as Romania's invasion of Russia, led by Germany? No.

Hey, Canadian pilots played a key role in the Battle of Britain - should we rename it "The Battle of Britain and Canada?" Nope.

Did American satellite intelligence win the Falklands, or British blood?

Did the French Resistance "win" D-Day?

(Bodyguard of Lies has always been my favorite book on intelligence, because it's the one I've EVER seen that admits that intelligence doesn't win wars. After hundreds of pages, it comes out and says "but at some point, however well the troops know the enemy's intentions, the fate of the battle still depends on the hard fighting on the ground." And funny, but by my count, even if there were a dozen GSG9 types, it's Israeli bodies that did this one by a long shot.)

Gotta wonder what's worth being so picky about here that words like "myth" are being thrown around...

R.III

 

[Simon Darkshade]

Originally posted by G-Man
I don't know if that's what brought Netanyahu to politics. Their father had similar ideas as well and was politicaly active about them even before the operation.

It wasn't THE catalyst that put him on a political road; he was already on one. But as he acknowledges in his writings, this did influence him. He founded the Jonathan Netanyahu Terrorism Centre after this, and his commentary on such matters raised his profile, and provided him with an issue to work with.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Richard III
(Bodyguard of Lies has always been my favorite book on intelligence, because it's the one I've EVER seen that admits that intelligence doesn't win wars. After hundreds of pages, it comes out and says "but at some point, however well the troops know the enemy's intentions, the fate of the battle still depends on the hard fighting on the ground." And funny, but by my count, even if there were a dozen GSG9 types, it's Israeli bodies that did this one by a long shot.)

Intelligence is a part of the military force. It won't win a war alone, but you can't win a war with an airforce or a navy alone as well. Entebbe was a case where intelligence were actually not so crucial. The soldiers knew many things from the media or from simple logic (the passengers are more likely to be held in the large terminal than in anywhere else) and other info was available from the time Israel helped Amin build his air force.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
It wasn't THE catalyst that put him on a political road; he was already on one. But as he acknowledges in his writings, this did influence him. He founded the Jonathan Netanyahu Terrorism Centre after this, and his commentary on such matters raised his profile, and provided him with an issue to work with.

Once you're on the political road in the Likud party your actions don't matter as much as how you treat the center members I'm afraid.