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The European Project: the future of the EU.

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Hrothbern, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

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    Some people outside are following it. But you're right, it's kind of suppressed on the news. What passes for international news here is usually no more than a regurgitation of whatever the three big news agencies care to publish.
     
  2. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    Yeah sorry, it's so ubiquitous here I forget it normally doesn't make sense for anyone else. it's a way around choosing the name in one of the official languages. Though at the moment in football games we use the French SUIsse instead of the probably very awkward SCHweiz.

    And btw. the Helvetians were only one of five tribes settling in Switzerland. There were also the Rhaetians (where our fourth language Rumantsch comes from), the Raurachians (who settled both sides of the Rhine), the Lepontians (south of the Alps) and the Allobrogians (in Switzerland basically just at Geneva).

    It's an interesting fluke of history that they just chose one name for the new nation in 1848...too complicated for nationalism otherwise if you have to share your celtic tribes with other nations...

    PS: And I of course can explain what the EEA and the CH besides the EU stand for... .
     
  3. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    Current proposed EU leadership seems like evil Alien proposal. Totaly ignoring EU, national and regional interests, most of EU people has no representative. In previous term we slavs/ee people at least had Tusk, who was by far best from the previous leadership and only one who was not constantly drunk / who we can understood.
     
  4. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    Shows the Eu got the message and will make no more mistakes to render it more unpopular.
    λολ
     
  5. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    I noticed the lack of Eastern Europeans as well. But then there are quite a few head of states from Eastern Europe in that body that chose the candidates (the EU Council) and they were apparently ok with that nomination. They for sure got different things in return, it's all a give and take, maybe some money here or a political concession there. So I don't think one should feel pity for the Eastern Europeans, it's their prime ministers who decided this as well.
     
  6. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    It is good you are ok with the concessions such as not having any sanctions against Orban or other fascist eu govs in former Austria-Hungary. I like this "realpolitik", though at some point it gets pretty difficult to distinguish it from just being a corrupt scumocracy.
     
  7. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    Oh, we don't know what the concessions are. That's the way backroom politics work. It's not a good system, but the way forward is to introduce more democratic elements, not go back to national areas. Nobody says the EU is not ripe for reform.
     
  8. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    Well, actually, it makes sense in french, as the initials are the same ("Confédération Helvétique") :p
     
  9. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    Bien sûr, je n'ai pas pensé a ça. My whole theory now goes down the drain. I still find it interesting how the 19th century nationalists just thought "let's do this in Latin", but then probably everybody understood the language :) And it's kinda cool, I think. Makes one seem so much more important than generic modern language :)
     
  10. uppi

    uppi Warlord

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    I suspect that this was the price the heads of the Eastern European countries had to pay for blocking Timmermans.

    But I am still baffled how anyone could think von der Leyen is the right person for the job. This is almost intentional sabotage of the EU.
     
    mitsho likes this.
  11. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

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    Thank you for your explanations about CH.


    There is no transparency in that. So on this island we are cynical enough to suspect that some of that
    money may have come from the UK's net contribution and be spent on something we may not approve of.
     
    mitsho likes this.
  12. Wastl

    Wastl Chieftain

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    The money spend by the EU isn't supposed to be only used for what a specific nation approves of...
    The whole point is to spend the money on a vast range of items and topics, not all going towards something every single country would consider useful.

    Beyond that, the whole idea is nonsensical anyway. Even if money was promised, which is based on absolutely nothing whatsoever, the money comes out of a shared pool. You couldn't possibly state "that money comes from the UK!" because that's not how any of this works. You might as well suggest that something done in your local area which you vehemently disagree with, was specifically paid for by the taxes you personally paid. That simply makes no sense at all.
     
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  13. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

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    I am not arguing that I should have a veto over what the tax I pay,
    or the debt my children will be required to pay for, is spent on.

    We would merely like to know what it is spent on.
     
  14. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    It is well spent on appeasing Orban and fascists in Austria.
    The baltic fas probably were bought at a cheaper price.
     
  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Warlord

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    No, it's just arrogance. In any case the controlling the ECB was the big prize. It is the financial power inside the EU and can easily control its the executive power. A couple of big states matter and are the ones controlling policy at that level. The rest of europe has no role making policy choices.

    I can't resist quoting here this fine diagnosis of the status quo in the EU today, published as a comment of the bad results of the left-wing parties in the most recent elections:

    It explains so accurately both the euro-fanboyism of a large portion of the users in this forum (young ones...), and the reasons they will live out their lives to be frustrated and disillusioned. Ultimately it explains the whole zeitgeist of the time: escapism into fiction and larger-than-life concerns, because for most people personal life eventually becomes perceived as one as without hope of agency. The "greens" with their tales of a world in danger to be rescued are accidental (and temporary) political profiters from that. Between a shrinking middle class desperately acting out the politically correct petit-burgois role (lest they be ejected from it), and a disillusioned mass at the bottom, what kind of politics can offer some hope?
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  16. mitsho

    mitsho Chieftain

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    Yes, the European Union has always been a neoliberal project which makes it noteworthy that it always seem to be the Left that has to defend it. Neoliberal because it was about the deconstruction of trade barriers, i.e. provisions hard won by Trade Unions on Social Systems, Work protections, Safety Measures, Quality Guarantees and so on. It is only now that those aspects more and more get into the focus of the EU. Maybe because the powers to be understood that you need that Social Integration as well to form a European Cohesion. Now the question remains for the Left whether it‘s best to achieve those things outside or within an alternative (The Radicals) or within the existing EU (the Social Democrats).

    I‘m solidly a centrist by the way and prefer a way without much disruption.
     
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  17. Wastl

    Wastl Chieftain

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    You do know what that money is spend on.

    You can't just take a random claim like that and automatically assume that it must be true. Though even if it were true and eastern European countries would get some more money (which seems highly unlikely, but whatever) you still would end up knowing where exactly the money is going to, because that information would be publcially available.

    Oh boy, you accuse others of arrogance and then you proceed to write this load of nonsense. What an amazing show of hypocrisy. People who don't blindly agree to your incoherent and mostly wrong rants about the EU are "euro-fanboys", and of course they all are "young" and thus apparently too dumb to understand how life really works. You are so out of touch with reality it isn't even funny anymore. Nothing but baseless assumptions and insults.

    Maybe it's time for you to learn that people out there can have a different opinion than you, and it's not because they are blind fanboys or too young to fully understand things...
     
  18. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    The new head of the european commission is a failed politician even locally (Germany) and is under investigation for corruption. That she got given the position of eu commissioner is something not even those who like the Eu can defend.
    Moreover: now the Eu commissioner is german and the head of the european bank is french. Should do wonders for marketing the eu as being about all its members and not just 1,5.
     
  19. EnglishEdward

    EnglishEdward Chieftain

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    Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. And for back-room deals we generally do not know.

    The EU may allocate money to a member statelet project. That statelets' politicians may use it to pay a corporate.
    The contract details are held back under commercial confidentiality. The corporate then pays back the statelet politicians.


    And considering payments not made to EU statelets.

    Details of UK MP expense claims are published.

    Details of MEP expense claims are concealed.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...uropean-parliament-court-edited-a8553731.html
     
  20. uppi

    uppi Warlord

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    I think that is a misconception. First, because the roots of the European Union predate any major influence of neoliberal thoughts on European politics and second, because the EU is not about tearing down all the provisions won by trade unions. In fact, EU law sets minimum standards in all those areas which would be a major barrier to radical neoliberal politics. Now, the prevalence of neoliberal thought in European politics starting in the 90ies certainly did have an influence on the EU and harmonization of standards did lower the standards in some areas, but it also raised it in others. You may argue that in total this may have had a negative effect on societal cohesion, but I vehemently disagree that the EU is all about neoliberalism and will not take anyone seriously who continues to argue that.
     
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