The European Project: the future of the EU.

[Verbose]

Actually it also makes her look bad. She can't even plan to get a chair.

Only if one assumes she is responsible of every damn thing – including the inner workings of the Turkish presidential administration.

That said, the likeliest explanation for the whole incident is that someone simply dropped the ball in Erdogan's planning detail. "Never impute to malice what can sufficiently be explained by incompetence."

 

[Kyriakos]

Only if one assumes she is responsible of every damn thing – including the inner workings of the Turkish presidential administration.

That said, the likeliest explanation for the whole incident is that someone simply dropped the ball in Erdogan's planning detail. "Never impute to malice what can sufficiently be explained by incompetence."

I am sure it has nothing to do with beating your wife being legal in Turkey, or women being second-class citizens.
Then again, we should pretend that Ursula deserves her position, and wasn't just placed there by Merkel/Macron, making a mockery of what she is supposed to be leading.

 

[Hrothbern]

To recap:

Erdogan receives EU dignitaries Charles Michel and Ursula von der Leyen. He sits with him on the honor seats, she is invited to sit on a sofa.

En passant: boo Michel for not taking the chance to sit with her or standing by the sofa.

Draghi merely said that the king is naked. He said (my translation): "I was very sorry for the humiliation von der Leyen had to endure. We have to consider that with these dictators, with whom we have to work together, one has to be honest about expressing the difference in views, behavior, vision, while ready to cooperate for the good of one's country".

Good statement of Draghi !
On the background
* Turkey ended a couple of weeks ago the Convention of Istanbul (of 2011), a convention where countries sign up to protect women against violence incl domestic violence.
* a new sum of money (several Billions Euro) is being negotiated and almost finalised now with Turkey that they buffer Syrian refugees stopping them to go to the EU (mainly Greece as first entry).
* the EU civil servants responsible for the protocol negotiations of the formal visit did a sloppy job, and (I almost cannot believe it) Michel and von derr Leyen did not check up on the formal procedure as agreed before entering that room. I can only imagine such carelessness if you are totally dominant and then you can act upon your desire to improvise.
* Michel and von der Leyen are a bit in competition with each other. Not unusual between these two functions, whereby noted that formally Michel outranks von der Leyen, but von der Leyen is making more headlines in the newsmedia (and perhaps some more IDK about).
* This (above point) should not have divided them during a formal external visit, and indeed boo to Michel for not being ad rem enough to intervene by some action loyal to von der Leyen and the EU as a whole.

 

[EnglishEdward]

It is so comically against the current zeitgeist, and it makes everyone look bad, with the possible exception of von der Leyen.

We are told that the EU benefits from economy of scale.

And this may be an example, she procured a sofa which is equivalent to two chairs.

 

[Verbose]

We are told that the EU benefits from economy of scale.

And so it does, just like fx the US – it's a domestic market.

What's badly understood by those who enjoy that kind of massive domestic markets is what are effects of quality and what are effects of quantity. Mostly the former are overestimated, because it's more self-flattering to think success is due to be actually good at something compared to success as an effect of being provide with huge freedom and access just generally.

Size domestic market is always one the most important factors of all international economic competitiveness assessments.

 

[r16]

a typical outcome . The defence secretary of the palace cabinet in London to debrief their truest pals , even if there would be no reason , considering the bragging New Turkey got when the colonial governor ll in Ankara was made the head of Ml6 . The Greek member wants us to believe it is legal to beat wives in this country . Not there yet . And no , my response will not be that your Prime Minister is an hairy ape .

the thing is it is an essential development . PM is still the best bet , losing power but still able to survive or something . All dependant on the votes and the congregations are given all the facilities to infiltrate and capture everything , with neaningful armed presence especially required for the end game of Civil War and massacres , as far as they will last . The third class status of women then is a desirable thing as their husbands will be definitely second class compared to a happy minority to avoid stuff , with timely evacuations to foreign locations for the duration . Which neatly combines with a worldview of congregations from rather old times . That demanded the end of the lstanbul Convention and further erosion of Women's Rights . With this the PM gains the votes of people who will vote whatever way their sheik tells them ; with a possibility of removing Saadet from the Opposition bloc . That's tiny on its own , but their lslamist creditentials cause a lot of headache for A-K-P which always loves to paint them moderates who always fight the infidels , especially inside the country .

though the same issue of votes seriously demands A-K-P to reach out to the majority of the country , covered by the promise of improved situations , Rights , stuff , stuff . Will make the congregations "angry" , merely bargaining for even more "gifts" to be placated . Find some image of the situation and tell who looks the most Western ... Watch how there are two equals ... lt is carefully set up , and sorry , everybody is in that scenario . lmagine how that have might satisfied commoners in congregations providing a leverage for PM's loyal to stage an uprising or two , or something . And the power of ignoring people .

 

[Kyriakos]

a typical outcome . The defence secretary of the palace cabinet in London to debrief their truest pals , even if there would be no reason , considering the bragging New Turkey got when the colonial governor ll in Ankara was made the head of Ml6 . The Greek member wants us to believe it is legal to beat wives in this country . Not there yet . And no , my response will not be that your Prime Minister is an hairy ape .

the thing is it is an essential development . PM is still the best bet , losing power but still able to survive or something . All dependant on the votes and the congregations are given all the facilities to infiltrate and capture everything , with neaningful armed presence especially required for the end game of Civil War and massacres , as far as they will last . The third class status of women then is a desirable thing as their husbands will be definitely second class compared to a happy minority to avoid stuff , with timely evacuations to foreign locations for the duration . Which neatly combines with a worldview of congregations from rather old times . That demanded the end of the lstanbul Convention and further erosion of Women's Rights . With this the PM gains the votes of people who will vote whatever way their sheik tells them ; with a possibility of removing Saadet from the Opposition bloc . That's tiny on its own , but their lslamist creditentials cause a lot of headache for A-K-P which always loves to paint them moderates who always fight the infidels , especially inside the country .

though the same issue of votes seriously demands A-K-P to reach out to the majority of the country , covered by the promise of improved situations , Rights , stuff , stuff . Will make the congregations "angry" , merely bargaining for even more "gifts" to be placated . Find some image of the situation and tell who looks the most Western ... Watch how there are two equals ... lt is carefully set up , and sorry , everybody is in that scenario . lmagine how that have might satisfied commoners in congregations providing a leverage for PM's loyal to stage an uprising or two , or something . And the power of ignoring people .

Raping a woman is also legal in Turkey, as long as you marry her afterwards. It's all good

 

[r16]

another moment of heartbreak , with realisation that nobody reads me , but then this was also the essential piece of r16 , whom nobody reads but everybody will discover they were told so , if they had just made an effort of thinking straight for 5 seconds . r16 told people , right ?

now at a time when virginity was an 100% thing and women were extremely unlikely to stand on their own , a rape would end up in the situation where the female would have been "soiled" . She was given an option to forgive the assailant and the rapist had to marry her and stuff . "Muslims" of course cry foul , especially when the same set of laws have clauses against child marriages . A certain period of foolishness in the teen , as she thinks her being splendid has caused her husband or whatever to find true love and stuff and abandon the previous issue . Lasts about long enough to find herself pregnant and less likely to seperate and stuff .

all part and parcel of the mechanisms of a set of people wildly liked by Athens , as they destroy this country and will no doubt create an opening for occupation . Except Kurds and Arabs will give you nothing , as they chase the remnants of the Turks into the Balkans . So much that the admirals calling for a coup issue , with a declaration about the Montreaux convention was rushed , the original release date was 6th , actually the day of the Sofagate but they would conflict in coverage as Tuesdays are when parties in the Parliament have general meetings and the political debates of the week are shaped ... You see , the Sofagate was weakly covered in New Turkey , it would be totally lost if the coup thing was "discovered" on the same day .

 

[Hrothbern]

another moment of heartbreak , with realisation that nobody reads me , but then this was also the essential piece of r16 , whom nobody reads but everybody will discover they were told so , if they had just made an effort of thinking straight for 5 seconds . r16 told people , right ?

now at a time when virginity was an 100% thing and women were extremely unlikely to stand on their own , a rape would end up in the situation where the female would have been "soiled" . She was given an option to forgive the assailant and the rapist had to marry her and stuff . "Muslims" of course cry foul , especially when the same set of laws have clauses against child marriages . A certain period of foolishness in the teen , as she thinks her being splendid has caused her husband or whatever to find true love and stuff and abandon the previous issue . Lasts about long enough to find herself pregnant and less likely to seperate and stuff .

all part and parcel of the mechanisms of a set of people wildly liked by Athens , as they destroy this country and will no doubt create an opening for occupation . Except Kurds and Arabs will give you nothing , as they chase the remnants of the Turks into the Balkans . So much that the admirals calling for a coup issue , with a declaration about the Montreaux convention was rushed , the original release date was 6th , actually the day of the Sofagate but they would conflict in coverage as Tuesdays are when parties in the Parliament have general meetings and the political debates of the week are shaped ... You see , the Sofagate was weakly covered in New Turkey , it would be totally lost if the coup thing was "discovered" on the same day .

"with realisation that nobody reads me"
I am not on this forum to read stuff that is what I already thought to be the case.
I am here to read authentic opinions and the info and thoughts behind that.

 

[Kyriakos]

"with realisation that nobody reads me"
I am not on this forum to read stuff that is what I already thought to be the case.
I am here to read authentic opinions and the info and thoughts behind that.

If anything, r16 isn't the stereotypical voice of a turk online, which is why I do like him.

 

[Sofista]

You see , the Sofagate was weakly covered in New Turkey , it would be totally lost if the coup thing was "discovered" on the same day .

The fact that there was coverage at all proves definite bravery from the journalists (unless they spun it as 'Dear Leader shows a woman sticking her nose where it doesn't belong her right place'). Turns out that the one getting the flak isn't really Erdogan (from whom no one expects much) but Michel.

EDIT: for those who stick to the 'incompetence' theory:

 

[Hrothbern]

The fact that there was coverage at all proves definite bravery from the journalists (unless they spun it as 'Dear Leader shows a woman sticking her nose where it doesn't belong her right place'). Turns out that the one getting the flak isn't really Erdogan (from whom no one expects much) but Michel.

EDIT: for those who stick to the 'incompetence' theory:

These pictures show very well that Erdogan would not like to see pictures himself seated as man of power formally between a man and a woman. Quelle horreur !
There are two Turkeys in this respect. The modern society accepting women in external roles, Istanbul, Izmir etc, and the old-fashioned one, where "women know their place".
And not only in Turkey, but also outside Turkey many Turkish women find their independent dignity and respect. You cannot really stop emancipation in a general sense, unless you surpress it, with icons and actions. I saw some docs on volunteer selforganisations by and for Turkish women in NL. Amongst other topics like self-awareness and self-respect as human being (and not as wife) also real nice discussions on practical theological and philosophical topics directly related to their daily life. Through the kids at school and all the social and volunteer events rtelated to that they pick up much more from around them, and think more aloud on it, than many of their husbands. Their daughter's general better performance as children and adolescents at schools and higher educations the begin of a growing cultural gender gap between new and old (the same story with Moroccan migrants).
I would not rate it convulsions but Erdogan is imo factually on the defense.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

And so it does, just like fx the US – it's a domestic market.

What's badly understood by those who enjoy that kind of massive domestic markets is what are effects of quality and what are effects of quantity. Mostly the former are overestimated, because it's more self-flattering to think success is due to be actually good at something compared to success as an effect of being provide with huge freedom and access just generally.

Size domestic market is always one the most important factors of all international economic competitiveness assessments.

The thing is that EU is not the US or a US copy, US is a single country with largely a united language and culture. EU is made up of alot of countries with different languges, cultures, laws and so on, the fact EU even work is impressive given that those countries used to fight each other, which seems to be a reason why EU was created in first place, the war stuff got a bit too far.

 

[Kyriakos]

Any views as to how Draghi decided to make this statement about Erdogan (dictator etc)?
I mean, I agree with the statement, but we aren't used to such statements in this german Eu. And obviously Draghi wouldn't just say that out of temper - he is a career civil servant/politician.

 

[Hrothbern]

Any views as to how Draghi decided to make this statement about Erdogan (dictator etc)?
I mean, I agree with the statement, but we aren't used to such statements in this german Eu. And obviously Draghi wouldn't just say that out of temper - he is a career civil servant/politician.

Well... according to the good cop/bad cop, with Merkel in the role of good cop, it was Italy's turn.
A couple of years ago there was this Turkish election incident in DE and NL, recently it was Macron, and now Italy. Next one Spain ?
The East-European countries nicely handled by Erdogan by withdrawing from the Istanbul convention. Hammering on the cultural wedge between East and West.
https://www.politico.eu/article/istanbul-convention-europe-violence-against-women/

It once seemed relatively uncontroversial: a 25-page document meant to reduce violence against women across Europe.

But a decade later, the initiative, known as the Istanbul Convention, has unexpectedly become a proxy fight for the larger culture wars brewing between East and Western Europe.

One by one, Eastern European countries are turning their back on the document, claiming it will erode their version of “family values.” Turkey, which hosted the convention that produced the document, will withdraw from the convention on July 1. Poland has signaled it is questioning the agreement. Other European countries, like Hungary, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic, signed the document, but haven’t translated its provisions into law.

 

[Verbose]

Any views as to how Draghi decided to make this statement about Erdogan (dictator etc)?
I mean, I agree with the statement, but we aren't used to such statements in this german Eu. And obviously Draghi wouldn't just say that out of temper - he is a career civil servant/politician.

Because it is apparently also an Italian EU?

 

[Kyriakos]

Because it is apparently also an Italian EU?

While Italy is the third (and last) country which isn't a vassal, it can't be said that this is an italian Eu.

 

[r16]

and people missing the angle . lt's bad but we must work with the system is the main theme , and supportive of the PM . Like quite softer when compared to some blog where we "learn" Police will field attack helicopters , America will have ships in the Blacksea and like once again America will have a flying saucer or something .

 

[Sofista]

Any views as to how Draghi decided to make this statement about Erdogan (dictator etc)?
I mean, I agree with the statement, but we aren't used to such statements in this german Eu. And obviously Draghi wouldn't just say that out of temper - he is a career civil servant/politician.

I doubt Draghi, who's been avoiding public appearances as conceivably possible since he's been instated, ever talks without intent.
And as far as civil servants go, he's been used to being very close to the top these last years.

EDIT: it just occurred to me that he 'coincidentally' praised Libya's work with rescuing people attempting to cross the Mediterranean last week. It could be that he's sending a message out, that we are again going to be a player in that country.

Well... according to the good cop/bad cop, with Merkel in the role of good cop, it was Italy's turn.
A couple of years ago there was this Turkish election incident in DE and NL, recently it was Macron, and now Italy. Next one Spain ?

That would be.... progress. Not just Berlin and Paris doing anything could actually re-ignite a much-needed flame to the whole EU process.

 

[r16]

maybe it will be linked tomorrow but ı hear the two have had a two hour meeting solely on the specific subject of whether they are equals or anything but the guy has promised he won't let von der Leyen have the sofa again .