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The Evil Gods before the fall.

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by fdrpi, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. fdrpi

    fdrpi Chieftain

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    So what were the precepts of Mulcarn, Camulos, Aeron, Ceridwan, Esus, and Agares like? What would the spells have been, if they were put into the game?

    We already know about Mammon from the pedia entries. He had the power of foresight, so I am thinking things similar to passive espionage in the normal game.
     
  2. Selrahc

    Selrahc Chieftain

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    Mulcarn:Ice->Winter(Ice)
    Camulos:peace->War(Chaos)
    Aeron:Strength->Rage(Body)
    Cerridwen:Stars->Magic(Dimensional)
    Esus:Trust->Deception(Shadow)
    Agares:Hope->Despair(Entropy)

    A lot of the existing spells don't have that much to do with the precepts of the gods that govern them. Chaos isn't terribly related to war, Body to rage or Entropy to despair. I think the spheres they govern are unchanging
     
  3. fdrpi

    fdrpi Chieftain

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    I remember that. I was wondering what they meant, and what their spells were. But thank you anyway.
     
  4. Ruanek

    Ruanek Chieftain

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    That's the point, though. The spheres would be the same.
     
  5. fdrpi

    fdrpi Chieftain

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    For example, Mammon had the power of forsight when he was good. He lost it when he fell.

    And I doubt that Camulos was all about chaos as the God of Peace, and that Agares could make people wither as the God of Hope.
     
  6. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Mulcarn's sphere of ice was always about resistance to change and valuing the way things used to be. As such, his was the least changed sphere and he the least corrupt of the evil gods. Even right before deciding to invade Erebus, he recognized that his role in creation was important because it complimented its opposite. (All of the opposing spheres were meant to be complimentary rather than in conflict with one another.) The world needs to rest in the winter in order to allow new growth in the spring. Society needs to resist some changes, and perhaps more importantly needs to undo many changes after they are enacted if they did not work out very well. Otherwise we get bogged down in an incomprehensible overgrowth of gradually evolved systems that hinter the growth of beneficial changes. In its corrupt form, the biggest problem with the ice sphere is that it lacks objectivity when it hearkens back to an idealized past.


    Mind was about the ability to predict the outcomes of events. When Mammon saw what he thought was his own death, he became preoccupied with not simply accepting how things will be but actively intervening to change them. When you constantly interfere to try to control the outcome, you cannot objectively determine what will happen because you would have to predict what you would do in order to prevent your predictions from being true. In its fallen form, Mind is all about Control. Greed is caused by insecurity and the belief that you are protected by owning and controlling things.


    Camulos was always an Anarchist. His sphere always rejected the use of outside authority to limit the individual. As God of Peace, he was focused on preventing individuals from using force to coerce others. As God of Strife, he is focused on rejecting any principles that might prevent an individual from seeking his will over and against that of others.


    Aeron as God of Strength was supposed to use his power to protect the weak. As God of Murder, he despises the weak and believes that the strong have the right to exploit them in any ways they wish.


    Agares' sphere of hope turned to despair by first becoming a false hope. Despair is not the absence of hoping, but the conviction that they for which one so deeply longs is impossible. It is remaining fixated on the unachievable goal and so neglecting whatever better opportunities may emerge. (I like to think that the opposing sphere of Creation relates to not predicting or focusing on anything in particular, in order to remain open to making the best of the unexpected.)


    Ceridwen's sphere was about the ties that bind all individuals together into healthy relationships. In her corruption, it is about neglecting the individual to focus on the empty structure of the relationships, on maintaining unhealthy relationships, and on breaking our healthy bonds.


    Esus always dealt with secrets. He originally represented the confidence that allowed friends to be honest with each other without fear of having everything they share exposed to the rest of the world, and the ability to prevent conflict by refraining from saying things that would offend. In his corruption, the sphere is about exploiting that trust to manipulate others.
     
  7. Selrahc

    Selrahc Chieftain

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    The spells in the game don't seem to relate at all to the gods that hold the sphere. I don't think the spells would change at all. After all, Death serves as a stark example that the spells in the game can stand in stark contrast to the precepts of the god who governs the sphere. Laroth's command of Spirit is in defiance of Sirona.

    So take Agares, who has probably the starkest change in Precept. As the god of hope, he probably embodied the resistance of Entropy. Slowing it and holding it back. As despair, he accepts it and uses it to decay and consume. Mortal spellcasters? Would probably be able to use it to wither and rust the same as they do now. I'd bet that even were Mammon to be the God of Foresight still, mortal mind casters could still use their powers to take control of others.

    Because the spheres are objective and unchanging, and the precepts of the gods only show how they choose to use the sphere, not how the sphere must be used.
     
  8. deanej

    deanej Chieftain

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    It seems like the spheres themselves set the gods up to fall.
     
  9. A Moon

    A Moon The "A" is silent

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    Hm. And now I can't help but imagine an alternate universe Erebus, in which the good and evil gods were switched, and the zany but-well intentioned Doviello attempt to force back the harsh and corrupt rule of the Bannor.
     
  10. A Moon

    A Moon The "A" is silent

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    Hm. And now I can't help but imagine an alternate universe Erebus, in which the good and evil gods were switched, and the zany but well-intentioned Doviello attempt to force back the harsh and corrupt rule of the Bannor. And then I remember that the current theocratic Bannor rule is corrupt. Funny how these things work.
     
  11. Elder Methyl

    Elder Methyl Chieftain

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    And the Calabim protect the Weak from the evil Elohim?
     
  12. fdrpi

    fdrpi Chieftain

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    Sabathiel invades Erebus, along with the evil forces of the Mercurians, led by the psychopath Basium.

    Drifta and Meshabber of Dis are sent to stop them...

    By the way, what would be the evil versions of the good gods (or neutral)? Junil I imagine would be like fascism. But what about the others? And is there a difference between good or neutral natures of gods (ie what would neutral Agares or Junil be like)?
     
  13. Selrahc

    Selrahc Chieftain

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    On precedent, there isn't a change in precept if a god changes from good to neutral. Nature and Life act as examples from after the fall.

    As far as negative incarnations of the good gods? It's about thinking of negative incarnations of their precept. My take would be...
    Junil: Justice->Tyranny
    Sirona: Wisdom->Fury(Wrath?)
    Natosuelta: Faith->Treachery
    Amathaon: Fertility->Plagues
    Lugus: Light->Destruction
     
  14. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    An Evil Junil would probably be much like the corrupt Bannor, promoting submission to authority rather than concern for true justice.

    A corrupt Sirona would probably have more in common with Laroth's false god Temelachus. She would support selflessness taken to the point where one actively harms oneself rather than simply trying to make things better. Her followers would be depressed ans suicidal.

    A corrupt Nantosuelta would focus so much on the individual that she would despise all relationships. Her sphere would be very atomizing and antisocial. Rather than focusing on enhancing the virtues of the individual, she would instead defend individual vices against societal attempts to correct them.

    A corrupt Amathaon would be quite chaotic, rejecting the concept of hoping or planning for anything but just doing what feels good in the moment and damning the consequences.

    A corrupt Lugus would probably be a god of guilt and shame. Currently he is there to reveal our faults so that we may learn from and correct them. The corrupt sun sphere would be so critical of the self and others that it would lead to the belief that everything is too depraved for their to be any hope of redemption.

    An evil Succellus or Nemed would likely represent extreme stubbornness, a willingness to fight and sacrifice in vain for lost causes.

    We've already seen an evil Bhall.
     
  15. fdrpi

    fdrpi Chieftain

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    By the way, I just started playing your mod Magister. It's a lot of fun! :)

    Still, I think the shrines are a bit over powered. Fun if you get them of course.

    But why did you re-add the Dragon Cult? I never cared for it myself, so I'm just curious, as I probably am missing something.
     
  16. Diavolo Rosso

    Diavolo Rosso Lord Giggles

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    With Ceridwen's dimensional aspect of the Stars/Magic precept, do you think she has access to alternate realities where perhaps she acts differently? Sounds like a fun idea for a mod or scenario. Ceridwen doesn't like

    And I've always had trouble making the connection between Stars and Magic. I understand the good relationships vs. unhealthy co-dependence bit. But what does dependence and relationships have to do with Stars? Is it reflectd in the relationship of distance in regard to time and space? Is Magic the inverse of Stars because it represents a way to artificially bypass that distance by instantaneous dimensional travel? If so, are wormholes considered a natural phenomenon or unnatural. If natural, then it seems to contradict the previous premise. Help! I'm lost in a sea of logic.
     
  17. A Moon

    A Moon The "A" is silent

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    Thing of it like this: While good before his fall, and evil afterwards, Aeron was the god of body the whole time. Likewise, Ceridwen was magic the whole time.
     
  18. Yama951

    Yama951 Chieftain

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    I know this is thread necromancy, but I think I figured out the Stars/Magic thing.

    Ceridwen's sphere represents bonds, relationships and connections, a tangle of interconnected strings. Not only does she know the bonds between people, things, and concepts, she also knows how things will be affected because of these threads.

    The Stars represent a simple concept. Astrology, the idea that the stars affect the people, As Above, So Is Below. And so she is also the Goddess of Fate, for the Stars foretell your actions in a way. When she was good, she creates bonds and cuts those that went bad. Like the Fates themselves.

    But when she fell, she decides to take over control of the bonds for her own unknown but probably selfish reasons. She wants to cut the bonds between many things while messing with other bonds in order to promote herself. She also went against the idea that the stars influence those below, that the gods have absolute control or something like that. Since the Compact acts like some sort of Law of Nature, then the only way is to break such law, to cut the threads of the Compact. Hence why there's Magic and why she's in charge of it. No longer will mortals be under the rules of the world but now they can bend and break the rules of the world for their own personal ambition.

    She probably have a hand in cutting the bond between True Heaven and the rest of Erebus and the others while making plans to cause the end of the world.
     
  19. Diavolo Rosso

    Diavolo Rosso Lord Giggles

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    The Astrological perspective is really interesting. I like the analogy to the Fates. Makes me think of Ceridwen in a different light.

    I wouldn't be surprised if she persuaded Agares to rebel, but the One cut the link between the True Heaven. Ceridwen wouldn't have any say in that. Though her plan for armageddon might be to cause the One to come back and maybe plead to let them all back into the True Heaven.
     

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