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[BTS] The Final and Definitive Truth about Diplomatic Modifiers

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Hesha, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

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    I don't have it! But I want to have it. Most of you guys (and gals) probably have it in your heads anyways, but to me it is still a mystery.

    What I imagine to create with this thread is an overview of all possible diplomatic opinion modifiers, including their maximum values, their duration, how to get them, how to get rid of them, etc.

    For example, my exploiting the ceasefire mechanic, you can make your warfare a lot easier and minimise your casualties, but you will rack up "Declared war on our friend"-modifiers with some AIs. Now, if those are temporary that is far less serious than if they are permanent. And this is just one example.

    I will edit this first post to fill in all the information, but it might be too much, in which case I would attach a document.

    If what I am looking for already exists somewhere, please point me to it!

    From what I have gathered, the bonus for supplying resources is capped at +2. Is this a permanent bonus or will it wear off? How quickly will the fair trade bonuses wear off?

    EDIT: Maybe a Mod can fix this, I meant to tag the thread BTS...

    Moderator Action: A bit late but done!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2020
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  2. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

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    I don't know all the possible modifiers and their duration (I think that's random and/or depends on the specific AI, in at least some cases), but here's a list of all the defined text strings for diplo modifiers that I can find:
    Spoiler :
    TXT_KEY_MISC_ATTITUDE:
    "Our close borders spark tensions."
    "This war spoils our relationship."
    "Years of peace have strengthened our relations."
    "We care for our brothers and sisters of the faith."
    "We are upset that you have fallen under the sway of a heathen religion."
    "We appreciate the years you have supplied us with resources."
    "Our Open Borders have brought our people close together."
    "Our Defensive Pact proves that we are close friends."
    "We are upset that you have signed Defensive Pacts with our rivals."
    "Our mutual military struggle brings us closer together."
    "You have wisely chosen your Civics."
    "Our trade relations have been fair and forthright."
    "You have traded with our worst enemies!"

    (Same added by BTS:)
    "Past events have brought our people together."
    "Past events have drawn our people apart."
    "You have granted us our independence!"

    TXT_KEY_MEMORY:
    "You declared war on us!"
    "You declared war on our friend!"
    "You nuked us!"
    "You nuked our friend!"
    "You razed one of our cities!"
    "You razed a Holy City!"
    "Your spy was caught causing trouble!"
    "You gave us help."
    "You refused to help us!"
    "You gave us tribute."
    "You refused to give us tribute!"
    "You accepted our state religion."
    "You refused to accept our state religion!"
    "You accepted our favorite civic."
    "You refused to accept our favorite civic!"
    "You agreed to come to our aid in war-time."
    "You refused to help us during war-time!"
    "You agreed to stop trading with our worst enemy."
    "You refused to stop trading with our worst enemy."
    "You stopped trading with us."
    "You recently stopped trading with us!"
    "You made an arrogant demand!"
    "You recently made an arrogant demand!"
    "You cancelled our open border agreement!"
    "You have shared your technological discoveries with us."
    "You received a tech from another civilization."

    Normally hidden, but made visible through BULL/BUFFY:
    "A first impression is a lasting one."
    "Your team is too big."
    "Your small civilization is no threat to us."
    "We feel threatened by your large civilization."
    "Developing nations should work together to catch up."
    "The war is going badly for us."
    For your specific questions I'm not sure if the resource +diplo fades, I assume it does. Fair Trade I know for sure does, although how quickly depends - the more the AI was traded "fairly" and the shorter you've known the AI, the longer it'll take to decay.
     
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I need this thread too... So many things that are unclear about diplomacy. :)
     
  4. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Resource trade fades, if for some reason you stop trading. How fast might be rather complicated I suspect.

    I think someone did find a guide on how long it takes the resource bonus to appear. I think 50t for 1 resource and this decreases by X% with each additional resource.

    Fair trade definitely fades...how fast either way is probably quite complex and based on several factors.

    It should be noted that quite a few diplo factors vary based on leader and peaceweights. The “Know Your Enemy” article details this and that article was based on a spreadsheet parsed from game code which is around here somewhere. ( I know Kossin always had it linked in his sig)
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I don't know how many turns is required to get "Years of peace have strengthen our relations".
    I don't know how many turns is required to get "Our open borders have brought our people close together."
    But It's a long time.
    Perhaps 50 turns...?
     
  6. Anysense

    Anysense King

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    If memory serves its 50 and 25 respectively. For open borders its 25 for +1 and then 25 more for +2.

    There are several threads dedicated to various aspects of diplomacy and revealing certain hidden modifiers and mechanics. Incorporating them into one guide is going to be very difficult job.

    I have a few threads bookmarked
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/prepare-to-cringe-bad-maps-deity.647427/page-6#post-15508869
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...vassalising-your-enemies.328907/#post-8292358
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/land-target-and-manipulating-the-ai.561148/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...echanics-of-capitulation.364486/#post-9187360
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...arification-of-certain-game-mechanics.464503/

    The last one concerns a wide variety of subjects, including AI behavior.

    There is a lot of useful stuff in WastinTime's BC Space thread
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ace-strategies-from-a-10-year-veteran.574724/
     
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  7. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    I remember reading on this forum that a perfectly even trade doesn't give "You have traded with our worst enemies", but I've tested it and it never works for me.

    The idea was if they have lets say 80 gold, but they only offer you a tech + 55 gold, the trade is "even" and people won't mind. I would be interested to know how this actually works, because it feels quite random whether or not the trade will anger their worst enemy..
     
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  8. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

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    For this I remember someone explaining this to me. If I remember correctly, this is a very simple formula, you simply get +1 for every 50 "resource-turns", i.e. 1 resource over 50 turns or 10 resources over 5 turns, etc. So it is quite easy to get this in the lategame by just giving someone 10 resources for 5 turns (or 5 for 10, since you can't cancel before that anyways).

    EDIT: FIxed logic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  9. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @earthy Perfecly balanced trades seem to anger AIs less in my games, pretty consitently, but it doesn't make it go away completely.
    But it seems to me, that there is some variation between AI and AI, who gets pissed of or not.

    Both fair trade, and "you traded with your worst enemy" is a factor of fairness or unfairness divided by the number of turns you have known the AI, so say in ISO, when you first meet alot of AIs, even the most fair trade likely can cause -4 diplo hit with someone who has them as WE, it's likely to fade down to -1 quite quickly though.

    Thats why the trick of gifting 10g when you first meet toku enables you to open borders with him, for example. ;)
     
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  10. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

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    Alright then. My first conclusion seems to be that nobody seems to know anything exactly :D

    When I'm back home I will approach the issue a little more systematically, but for now... do you know of the penalty for declaring or on a civ (or a friend) is permanent?
     
  11. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis King

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    From a programming standpoint I'd guess that anything listed under TXT_KEY_MEMORY decays after some variable amount of time, likely influenced by the AI in question. That said the penalty for DoWing someone (or someone's friend) I assume takes so long to decay that it's basically permanent. Like, steal a worker from Gandhi T5 and play the map until a Time victory, I'm sure he'll still have the -3 for DoWing him in the prehistoric era thousands of years ago.
     
  12. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    "Even trades" was a theory that I used to spout because I thought the penalty was the inverse of the fair trade bonus , but I now think it's wrong.

    "Traded with worst enemy" penalty is just the total value of stuff you trade with a pariah divided by the number of turns you've known the touchy civ I think. :hmm:

    I'll try to dedicate some time to this thread later.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2020
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  13. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    This is probably worth doing.
    Being consistently good at Deity requires good diplomacy.

    Making a whole guide outlining every single aspect of diplomacy would be murder!

    Let's just do it one at a time. :crazyeye:
    Please respond, critique, improve, and add to each one, and we can just paste a guide together at the end if we get it complete.
     
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  14. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

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    Agreed. I think just focusing on how to get the modifiers you want and avoid those you don't want is a good first step. Along with the information on which ones are (practically) permanent (like the one for sharing techs) and how high they can go.

    I mean... we already know it doesn't really matter if you can get Monty or Shaka to like you, because they'll try to murder you regardless.
     
  15. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Just to start out, here are the various thresholds for AI attitudes towards the player.

    The diplomacy thresholds are as follows:
    Furious: -10 diplo or lower
    Annoyed: -9 diplo to -3 diplo
    Cautious: -2 diplo to +2 diplo
    Pleased: +3 diplo to +9 diplo
    Friendly: +10 diplo or higher


    Our Close Borders Spark Tensions


    This is a negative diplomacy mod that can give up to a -4 diplomacy penalty.
    It occurs when you steal an AI's territory (tiles) that they would otherwise own.

    Outlined before by Pollina.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/land-target-and-manipulating-the-ai.561148/#post-14116312

    And also the legendary Tachywaxon.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/page-4#post-11940844

    Border tensions for each of the AI are governed by the xml value iCloseBorders.
    These can by looked up at any time by opening the DanF spreadsheet located here.

    =======================================

    To simplify what Pollina and Tachywaxon have already written on this subject, I'll lay out all 4 possibilities.

    Civs that give out a maxiumum -1 "Our Close Borders Spark Tensions" diplo penalty:

    1) Willem Van Oranje

    For Willem to give out the -1 diplo penalty, you must steal 20 tiles or more from him AND be his Land Target.

    If you are not a Land Target of Willem, it is impossible to get the diplo penalty. :)
    This will most often be the case if his capital is on a different land mass.
    Spoiler :


    Not a Land Target since capital is on an island.
    The maximum 20 tiles are stolen and still no diplo penalty.


    Moving the capital back to the mainland should activate Land Target status, so stealing 20 tiles should give the dreaded -1 border tensions.
    Spoiler :

    Hurk, it does not!?! :eek:
    Not even with 41 stolen tiles?
    Is the Land Target status not yet activated for some reason?
    Nope, I am 100% certain that Land Target is activated.
    I even advanced 1 turn just in case it was a world builder effect.

    Sigh, this is why Border Tensions never made it into Civ Illustrated.
    The Land Target guide took forever to write, and now I need to research the definition of "Stolen Tile" :lol:

    Let me figure out what went wrong...
    Tachy's code will be key.

    **Edit**
    Ok, stolen tiles only count if they are taken from the Big Fat Cross of the AI city.
    Spoiler :
    Land Target Active, 20 BFC tiles stolen, -1 border tensions.


    Land Target Active, 19 BFC tiles stolen, 0 border tensions.


    Land Target Active, 20 BFC tiles stolen, -1 border tensions.

    This is based off the formulas:
    A) Not a Land Target
    Diplo Penalty = Floor[iCloseBorders*Min(60,Big_Fat_Cross_Stolen Tiles*3)/100]

    B) Land Target
    Diplo Penalty = Floor[iCloseBorders*(Min(60,Big_Fat_Cross_Stolen Tiles*3)+40)/100]

    Stealing 20 BFC tiles from Willem while a Land Target of him gives a diplo penalty of:
    Floor[1*(Min(60,20*3)+40)/100] = Floor[(60+40)/100] = Floor(1) = 1 or -1 diplo penalty.

    Stealing 19 BFC tiles from Willem while a Land Target of him gives a diplo penalty of:
    Floor[1*(Min(60,19*3)+40)/100] = Floor[(57+40)/100] = Floor(97/100) = 0 or 0 diplo penalty.

    TLDR; Let me just put everything into 1 single table. :badcomp:


    iCloseBorders = 1
    Willem Van Oranje

    iCloseBorders = 2
    Asoka
    Brennus
    Churchill
    Cyrus
    Darius
    De Gaulle
    Frederick
    Gandhi
    Hammurabi
    Hatshepsut
    Joao
    Lincoln
    Mansa Musa
    Mao Zedong
    Mehmed
    Pacal
    Pericles
    Ragnar
    Ramesses
    Stalin
    Suleiman
    Victoria
    Wang Kon
    Washington
    Zara Yaqob

    iCloseBorders = 3
    Boudica
    Charlemagne
    Elizabeth
    Gilgamesh
    Hannibal
    Huayna Capac
    Isabella
    Kublai Khan
    Napoleon
    Peter
    Roosevelt
    Saladin
    Suryavarman
    Tokugawa

    iCloseBorders = 4
    Alexander
    Augustus
    Bismarck
    Catherine
    Genghis Khan
    Julius Caesar
    Justinian
    Louis XIV
    Montezuma
    Qin Shi Huang
    Shaka
    Sitting Bull

    **Edit**
    Added "Capital must be on same landmass" to the Land Target requirements.​
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
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  16. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Ok, I found the problem.
    Stolen tiles are counted if they are from the Big Fat Cross of a city. :wallbash:
     
  17. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Really nice! The border tension mechanic just seemed completely random to me, but now I know it's at least in theory knowable. :)

    Here is from a recent game (Spoiler for NC223!)
    Spoiler :


    I gifted a city to Zara early on, in location "R".
    The intention was to utilize Zaras creative trait, to make Toku go bananas on him, to slow them both down, leave me alone to my business and create opportunities to piggyback/backstab either of them.

    At location R, Zara would early on steal 6 BFC tiles and Toku would get -1 diplo from that (0-8 tiles stolen).
    Had I instead placed the city at B, 10 tiles would have been stolen and Toku would then gotten -2 diplo (9-19 tiles stolen).
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


    Follow up question... Do we know other things that one can do, that can make one AI hate another?
    Spreading missionaries if you bulb philo early to make them heathen is one way and city gifting to create tensions is another.

    More?
     
  18. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

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    May I suggest to add the requirement that Land Targets must have capitals on the same land mass to the table?

    Or rather, does it work both ways? I mean, will the player not be targeted if their capital is on an island?
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  19. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Nothing spreads hate among the AI more than bribing them to DOW each other.

    Ya, I'll add the "capital on the same land mass" requirement to the table.
    Thanks for reminding me!

    I don't think having the player capital on an island changes anything. :hmm:
     
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  20. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Here is some more information.
    "Our Close Borders Sparks Tensions" diplo penalty takes a turn to wear off / take effect when the situation changes during the human player's turn. :cool:

    Here is 10 Great Artist bombs completely stealing 20 tiles from Genghis's 10:culture: city.
    No problem, until the following turn when -4 border tensions appears. :)
    Capturing the city with 20 stolen tiles also does not immediately remove the -4 border tensions.
    It takes 1 turn to disappear.
    Spoiler :


    Next Turn

    Also, moving Genghis' capital to an island and replacing his city with another 10:culture: city does indeed remove Land Target status.
    20 BFC tiles are still stolen, but without Land Target status the diplo penalty drops to -2.
    Spoiler :


    Finally, does 2 Genghis cities sharing tiles allow for double counting when the human steals them?
    Or are they only counted once?
    Spoiler :

    Cities that share tiles are only counted once as expected. :)
    If double counting was allowed, Genghis would be at -4, not -3.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
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